wumpus wrote on Fri, 14 April 2006 16:23

I'm still sticking by my assertion that the you won't *always* get tech if you already have the toy an MT is trading... but maybe there are circumstances that aren't apparent yet where this *is* true, hmphm. If nothing else, Robert's data bears this out... *sigh* that MT really is 'M' ;P

As a matter of fact, in my last game my ally traded me the MT item he had just got, so I could get a different thing when I catched the same MT. We did this for two different MTs. One of them gave me a single techlevel and the other gave me nothing.

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m.a@stars wrote on Mon, 17 April 2006 04:38

One of them gave me a single techlevel and the other gave me nothing.

Do you have backups for those turns (and the prior turns)?
If so, could you check the exact resources needed to gain every tech level, and compare that to how much you'd spent on research?

I've heard a report that MTs give tech resources not tech levels, and this could explain the giving no tech, especially if you're maxed out in a few fields. It also expains the dimishing returns for tech as you have more tech levels. It may explain how they seem to give you 3 levels of bio too, because if you've got a low level of bio, 10k resources may get you 3 levels.

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LEit wrote on Tue, 18 April 2006 06:05

m.a@stars wrote on Mon, 17 April 2006 04:38 One of them gave me a single techlevel and the other gave me nothing. Do you have backups for those turns (and the prior turns)? If so, could you check the exact resources needed to gain every tech level, and compare that to how much you'd spent on research? I've heard a report that MTs give tech resources not tech levels, and this could explain the giving no tech, especially if you're maxed out in a few fields.

Yes, I have backups, I think.

And we were at an already pretty advanced state of the tech race, most fields at 20+. As my tech costs for the fields I still hadn't maxed out were substantial, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if the MT fell short of completing several of those fields with the "resources" it gave. It has been so in some other games where I paid more attention, indeed.

Now that you mention it, I think I noticed some secondary techlevels were reached a bit earlier than anticipated.

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I was inhabiting an entire universe with a race for research purposes and decided to catch the MT's while doing it. I remember that my tech was maxed out in most fields and that i had gotten most but not all of the MT parts. I know for a fact that i hadnt gotten the alien miner (cause the race was AR) He gave me the mini-morph hull! Is that a "toy", or does he randomly give other PRT parts if his stock of toys is low?

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Just wanted to mention that the MT is sometimes stubborn
In our last game, which ended at 2511, there have only been 2(!!) MTs, both showing up before 2450, the first was caught by 2 players, the second only by one player! But then nothing, it seemed that random events justs went off after that...

Did anyone experience such a thing too?

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In a solo game, I had 108 total tech. On a turn where I met the MT, I also completed one tech level myself. I gave the MT 9802 kT of Boranium. He gave *one* tech level in return. Does that mean the Trader was really not a tech trader, but was a repeat of the (one and only) MT item I had? Or does it mean that the chart of how many levels for how many minerals is deeply wrong for JRC4?

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gwellman wrote on Tue, 06 February 2007 08:05

In a solo game, I had 108 total tech. On a turn where I met the MT, I also completed one tech level myself. I gave the MT 9802 kT of Boranium. He gave *one* tech level in return. Does that mean the Trader was really not a tech trader, but was a repeat of the (one and only) MT item I had? Or does it mean that the chart of how many levels for how many minerals is deeply wrong for JRC4?

It actually depends on your own Research settings, as has been discussed somewhere else. Basically, the MT gives you a dollop of "research resources" which then get more-or-less-randomly allocated to your various Research fields. That way, several different tech areas get advanced, though that might mean few new techlevels are actually reached that very turn.

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iztok wrote on Fri, 11 August 2006 21:23

So because there's no mechanism to target a MT with a packet, I'm very certain there's also no MT code to check for the packet. BR, Iztok

Interestingly enough, there's code for the MT to check ANY fleet under the same coordinates, even if it was not targeting the MT itself (nor any other fleet rendez-vousing with the MT), as I discovered that time the MT happened to "orbit" one of my planets where a mineral-balancing fleet was also received at the same time.

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Murphy's Law says the Mystery Trader will change directions at the most inconvenient time. And Murphy was an optimist!

That being said, I believe there are some trends mixed in with the randomness. People have said that large fleets and large numbers of minefields can spook an MT. Someone catching it increases the change of a direction change the next turn. Personally, I was playing in a game with an observer (neutral host race with much better tech due to special rules). I stumbled across the occassionally heavily-cloaked Nubian observer ships scattered throughout open space. There must have been a lot of observer ships because, the Mystery Traders bounced around like pinballs with ADD!

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gwellman wrote on Tue, 12 June 2007 08:52

Anyone have a good explanation for this?

Rounding is throwing you off.

Those coordinates you see are the result of rounding up the actual coordinates before displaying. Any calculator using them to project the next point will magnify the rounding error enough to get a wrong result more often than not.

Your data fits to 100% accuracy a straight line from [1780,1468] to [922 (or 923),1228] which correctly predicts coordinates for 2462 and gives [999.9 (actually rounded up as 1000),1249] as its last waypoint before falling off the edge of the universe.

Since 1000 is a valid value for ship coordinates, it would seem the universe bounds are tested against the 999.9 value (which is indeed almost 1000) before it gets a chance to be rounded up.

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[Updated on: Tue, 12 June 2007 17:46]

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gwellman wrote on Tue, 12 June 2007 23:34

Hmm, well, if we assume that the M.T.'s "real" position is stored to fractional accurracy, and that it can even *start* at a fractional location then, year . . . . x . . . . y 2453 1779.78 1468.00 2454 1701.75 1446.06 2455 1623.72 1424.12 2456 1545.69 1402.18 2457 1467.66 1380.24 2458 1389.63 1358.30 2459 1311.60 1336.36 2460 1233.57 1314.42 2461 1155.54 1292.48 2462 1077.51 1270.54 2463 0999.48 1248.60 would give 78.03 change in x each turn, 21.94 change in y each turn, equals a speed of 81.05c, would round (by normal rounding rules, not trunc) to the locations observed in the game,

I'm afraid that's not quite how things work.

Nothing suggests coordinates are actually stored as anything other than integers, and rounded up integers at that.

an exact speed*speed distance is applied towards the destination, with rounding governing the actual coordinates achieved. This means distances travelled can be over or under the expected ideal numbers and deltaX and deltaY will likely deviate from theory.

this applies to foreign ships, your ships, the MT, and packets.

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gwellman wrote on Wed, 13 June 2007 10:12

But if the rounding is applied each turn, and the fractional part is "forgotten" each turn, then the resulting delta in x and y should be the same every turn (for an object on a constant course, with no waypoints)

Remember, in Stars! everything has a Waypoint, and only the MT could conceivably be devoid of it. Since the deltas do in fact change and the MT seems to act the same as everything else, my theory is that the MT too has a destination Waypoint.

Quote:

But that's not what happened.

Q.E.D.

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My theory is such that:

MT destination waypoint is a point at edge where it plans to exit the universe. If you have 2-3 WP-s of MT then you can find it out, because it is at very edge where ships can move. However MT disappears there, no way to catch him there.

Random event "perhaps something startled him" lets everyone to know that MT increased its speed and choosed bit different destination point.

Random event "decided to take another" lets everyone to know that MT "bounched back" at the destination waypoint, decreased its speed and did choose a new destination waypoint.

[Updated on: Wed, 13 June 2007 07:41]

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Kotk wrote on Wed, 13 June 2007 12:40

My theory is such that: MT destination waypoint is a point at edge where it plans to exit the universe. If you have 2-3 WP-s of MT then you can find it out, because it is at very edge where ships can move. However MT disappears there, no way to catch him there. Random event "perhaps something startled him" lets everyone to know that MT increased its speed and choosed bit different destination point. Random event "decided to take another" lets everyone to know that MT "bounched back" at the destination waypoint, decreased its speed and did choose a new destination waypoint.

I have the MT Structure sewn up, it consist of it's current coordinates, destination coordinates, speed, bitmask of players that have met it, 16 bit bitmask (no bits set gives tech, 12 are used for the parts, 1 is used for ships (the number and design you get are random, confirmed by rerunning the same turn again), leaving 3 that appear unused) and the turn number which is 0 when it first enters, and appears to get set when it is met or changes speed or direction.

The destination cordinates always occur 20 ly away from the edge of the map, that explains why the MT couldn't be caught 1 ly from the edge since it leaves 19 ly before then. I've included examples destination coordinates from my testing below

1157,1020
1088,1380
1335,1020
1135,1380
1264,1380
1020,1149

There is nothing in the structure to indicate whether the MT will change direction or come round for another pass so those events will be completely random. You should be able to confirm that by reloading the backup turn when he does and rerunning it.

The .m files contain the same information as the .hst so if you can decrypt it you can check in advance what it will be giving.

I've always been getting something from the MT, the message that it couldn't teach you anything new occuring when it gives you tech resources but they are not enough to advance you a level.

[Updated on: Fri, 13 July 2007 17:17]

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