Home » Primary Racial Traits » IT » How to kill an IT
| How to kill an IT |
Fri, 16 September 2011 18:31  |
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 realitybend |
 | Crewman 1st Class |
Messages: 21
Registered: August 2011
Location: OR, United States | |
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Any general advice on how to win against an IT in a Tiny duel if I'm a JOAT?
I know that's a very vague question... but help a newbie out!
I'm playing this duel with slimdrag00n now, turn 11.
[Updated on: Fri, 16 September 2011 18:38]
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| Re: How to kill an IT |
Fri, 16 September 2011 19:17  |
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| Void |
 | Ensign |
Messages: 369
Registered: January 2011
Location: California, GMT -7 | |
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| realitybend wrote on Fri, 16 September 2011 15:31 |
Any general advice on how to win against an IT in a Tiny duel if I'm a JOAT?
I know that's a very vague question... but help a newbie out!
I'm playing this duel with slimdrag00n now, turn 11.
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In a tiny galaxy, an IT's special abilities (second starting planet, ability to gate over vast distances, etc) just don't come into play. So I think this question is how to win, period.
Without knowing what you know, it's hard to say. As a beginner not too long ago, first I learned all about game mechanics, then how to maximize my economy, then specific tactics, and then I was able to form a whole game strategy that took into account all of what was learned.
Can you get to 25k resources by 2450 in a standard testbed? If so, I reckon you've got the first two understood fairly well. If not, search the forum for how to get to 25k by 2450. The Stars Official Strategy Guide is a good read, too.
If you have a specific situation you'd like our thoughts on, by all means post it. I'm sure Slimdrag00n won't mind. 
Cheers,
Void
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| Re: How to kill an IT |
Sat, 17 September 2011 06:08 |
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| magic9mushroom |
 | Commander |
Messages: 1369
Registered: May 2008 | |
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| Void wrote on Sat, 17 September 2011 09:17 |
| realitybend wrote on Fri, 16 September 2011 15:31 |
Any general advice on how to win against an IT in a Tiny duel if I'm a JOAT?
I know that's a very vague question... but help a newbie out!
I'm playing this duel with slimdrag00n now, turn 11.
|
In a tiny galaxy, an IT's special abilities (second starting planet, ability to gate over vast distances, etc) just don't come into play. So I think this question is how to win, period.
Without knowing what you know, it's hard to say. As a beginner not too long ago, first I learned all about game mechanics, then how to maximize my economy, then specific tactics, and then I was able to form a whole game strategy that took into account all of what was learned.
Can you get to 25k resources by 2450 in a standard testbed? If so, I reckon you've got the first two understood fairly well. If not, search the forum for how to get to 25k by 2450. The Stars Official Strategy Guide is a good read, too.
If you have a specific situation you'd like our thoughts on, by all means post it. I'm sure Slimdrag00n won't mind.
Cheers,
Void
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An IT's abilities most certainly do come into play. Did you miss that the last duelling final was between two ITs?
Gating pop is still awesome in a tiny.
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| Re: How to kill an IT |
Sun, 18 September 2011 11:30 |
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| Eagle of Fire | 
 | Lt. Commander |
Messages: 809
Registered: December 2008
Location: GMT -5 | |
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| Quote: |
Of course, but in the current duelling rules JoaT is handicapped even more than CA (180 pts left over, no NAS).
I'm sure you'd agree that an unhandicapped IT has the econ advantage over a JoaT with an effective 270 pt penalty.
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Who ever said that there was penalties? I'm talking in the sense of a broad duel without any rules like we have in the dueling club.
Those penalties sure do change things around somewhat though.
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Well, gating pop is more of an advantage in the early-game than mid-game
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I disagree here. The time required to build your economy high enough so you can actually send enough colons to build a gate in one turn take a long time for IT. Until that point the advantage of moving pop around is quite minimal since we are playing here in a tiny. You need to cover a lot of ground with an IT for his pop gating advantage to take effect fully, and for that you need time. Which mean that in a normal game you usually get this after that, which mean it is not really noticable.
A more noticeable advantage is to be able to build less cargos to move things around since you can also gate minerals. You transport minerals in a single year then come back to your destination, saving a lot on travel time thus needing less ships. However, early game your cargos will spend most of their time moving pop around to colonize new planets... Which again beg to be able to colonize with enough colons to build a gate in one turn so your cargos don't sit around idle without fuel to come back. Building a gate is almost always faster to crawl back to your HW anyways...
Another small advantage is to be able to readily gate pop to surprise popdrop. That ought to be an exercice in futility against a PRT which already out pop you though, since you'll already need all the pop you can get to compete. This leave only attacks (drops) of opportunity, something the gate have no control over whatsoever.
The real advantage of IT is the unrestricted overgating. You can overgate both distance and weight with the only
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| Re: How to kill an IT |
Sun, 18 September 2011 12:32 |
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| Void |
| Ensign |
Messages: 369
Registered: January 2011
Location: California, GMT -7 | |
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| Eagle of Fire wrote on Sun, 18 September 2011 09:09 |
The whole point of being able to build a gate in one turn is speed though. You want to expand as fast as possible in a duel... Because of this, being able to shorten by only one year your expansion is a prime. If you can build a gate in one year then you spend the bare minimum of time orbiting the target planet: year one you colonize and build the gate, year two you gate the cargos you sent to colonize back to replace those coming in for the next planet.
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Completely agree - building the gate in a single turn comes with all of those benefits, and more.
I don't always choose that approach, though, as I may prefer to use my 50k+ colonists that my HW is producing each year to go after a new planet each year. Building a gated fort in a single turn takes three years of pop; a gated dock four years. The advantage is I get more planets. The disadvantage is that it takes longer to get a gate, use the planet as a hub for expansion, and it's more susceptible to attack.
As to which approach is best? I'd say it depends. It depends on the game and what I'm trying to accomplish.
Cheers,
Void
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| Re: How to kill an IT |
Fri, 14 October 2011 22:02 |
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| Braindead |
 | Officer Cadet 2nd Year |
Messages: 240
Registered: April 2005
Location: Ohio | |
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| Eagle of Fire wrote on Sat, 17 September 2011 09:48 |
IT is actually at a steep disadvantage against an JoAT in a duel.
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Only if the person playing JoAT is a much better player.
There is nothing that makes JoAT much better than IT. If anything, it puts JoAt at a disadvantage. ccmaster listed a few advantages that JoAT has over IT, but there are really only two:
* Information
* A bit quicker at the start
You can also add the fact that JoaT's mass drivers are better, but this is just too marginal. Some people mention resources and growth rate because you can have 20% more colonists on each planet. This rarely happens. When I play IT, all of my planets are at 100% capacity. If I'm lazy, then it's 9 out of 10. When I play JoaT, I can't get even close to this. JoaT's growth rate is only better at the beginning. The more planets both players have, the smaller this advantage becomes for JoaT.
Now, information and quickness out of the gate is a lot and good players will capitalize on both of them. But this isn't enough to make JoaT much better against IT in a duel. Look at what IT has:
* Ability to easily move minerals. This means that IT can build ships at all of his planets utilizing every single resource when needed.
* Ability to easily move people. Couple it with cheaper stargates and it becomes very important for fortifying new planets on the border.
* Ease of ship movements. Might not be as important in a tiny universe, but still very handy both, defensively and offensively.
The main difference between the two PRT's is that IT's advantages are static. They are always there and you can't take them away. The advantages that JoaT has are dynamics. If you know what you are doing, you'll be fine. If you don't, you're in trouble.
Now back to the original question. If you want to beat an IT as a JoaT, you need to use your advantage early on and build up a better economy. If it's mid-game and you are at the same level or even behind, then there isn't much you can do.
-braindead
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| Re: How to kill an IT |
Sun, 16 October 2011 01:12 |
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A -f IT or a -f JOAT?
Who'll be stronger?
I think I'll wait for the results of the championship finals to see how many even fielded -f JOAT/ JOATs as compared to -f ITs/ ITs.
Not a very exhaustive reply but it's pretty much what I wanted to say.
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| Re: How to kill an IT |
Tue, 18 October 2011 10:13 |
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| Void |
| Ensign |
Messages: 369
Registered: January 2011
Location: California, GMT -7 | |
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| slimdrag00n wrote on Mon, 17 October 2011 14:57 |
I think maybe the 20% pop bonus for Joat cant really help much in a tiny.
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I find the 20% bonus quite an advantage - both in terms of growth and maximum output. Starting at 3 is a bonus nobody else gets, unless they select all techs as expensive and pay the 60 RW points to start at 3 (actually, you don't need to select all techs expensive, just those that don't already start at three, like the Prop and Const for IT, but you take my point). With JOAT, you can pay those 60 RW points and start at 4 if you wanted, but aside from laying mines, I'm hard pressed to think what else you'd get at tech 4 that would be worthwhile. I digress.
The 20% bonus is a worthwhile advantage in my opinion. The tech and pen scans are a nice bonus, too.
Cheers,
Void
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| Re: How to kill an IT |
Tue, 18 October 2011 19:59 |
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| Braindead |
| Officer Cadet 2nd Year |
Messages: 240
Registered: April 2005
Location: Ohio | |
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| Void wrote on Tue, 18 October 2011 07:13 |
The 20% bonus is a worthwhile advantage in my opinion. The tech and pen scans are a nice bonus, too.
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These are all theoretical arguments, which all go away with a few clicks of the race wizard (OBRM, starting pop, shape of the hab ranges, total terraforming, etc.). You are comparing a hypothetical JoaT to a hypothetical IT.
Let's look at what happens in a real game (I assume a tiny universe).
Early stages
JoaT advantages:
* strong: faster at finding habitable planets because of built-in pen scanners
* medium: once the hw reaches 25% (or 33% wherever you chose to keep it for growth), a JoaT will have higher growth per turn on HW.
* strong: information because of better scanning
IT advantages:
* small-to-strong: starts with C5 vs C3, which gives IT an ability to chose between Freighters and Privateers for colonists movement. If JoaT doesn't start at 4, then depending on mineral concentration and factory settings, this can be either irrelevant or very big.
* medium: starts with gates. This one is not so much about the ability to gate coloinsts and minerals. This is about the fact that IT can gate freighters back to HW after they reached their destination. This means IT needs to build fewer ships and can spend resources on economy or tech.
* strong: ability to gate colonists and minerals. Once the first wavey of new planets is colonized, it is much faster and easier for IT to expand and to build economy (for +f).
* strong: ability to hold border planets. Because IT can gate colonists, it is in a better position to hold/defend border worlds against early pop drops.
Mid-game
JoaT advantages (assuming JoaT has NAS):
* if IT has NAS, then JoaT's advantage is information. In a tiny universe this is only a medium advantage since IT can use suicidal scouts to collect this information. Plus IT can see planets which have gates.
* if IT doesn't have NAS, then there are two advantages. First, better range of regular scanners. And the second advantage depends
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| Re: How to kill an IT |
Fri, 11 November 2011 03:07 |
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| magic9mushroom |
| Commander |
Messages: 1369
Registered: May 2008 | |
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| nmid wrote on Sun, 16 October 2011 16:12 |
A -f IT or a -f JOAT?
Who'll be stronger?
I think I'll wait for the results of the championship finals to see how many even fielded -f JOAT/ JOATs as compared to -f ITs/ ITs.
Not a very exhaustive reply but it's pretty much what I wanted to say.
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Duel championship heavily penalises JoaTs compared to ITs.
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