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I need 35 Points

Mon, 22 February 2010 15:23

Crewman 2nd Class

Messages: 13
Registered: February 2010
Location: Deutschland

It is the first time i try to create SS in -f style

This is my Race:

SS

IFE,ISB,OBRM,NAS,RS

grav: immune
temp: -60 to 156
rad: 59 to 89

it call's 1/5 but is realy near to 1/6

fabs: 5/25/5
mines: 10/3/12

tech: weap,con cheap
bio: expensiv
rest normal

missing 35 points

What ist the best way to get this points?

No IFE, prop cheap instead of con, and temp immune?

No ISB?

just prop expensiv?

Lowering the hab?

Sounds all bad. I don't have any idea.

[Updated on: Mon, 22 February 2010 15:25]

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Re: I need 35 Points

Mon, 22 February 2010 15:30

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It is pretty standard to have only two Techs cheap the rest expensive.(Weapons and Construction cheap)
These could change if your in a team game or for your play style.

You should get plenty of points by doing this.

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Re: I need 35 Points

Mon, 22 February 2010 17:46

Crewman 2nd Class

Messages: 13
Registered: February 2010
Location: Deutschland

Only 2 cheap? HG sure.But -f?

I thought -f need 3.5 cheap tech.

With electronic expensiv. It seems difficult for -f to get all the nice SS toys .

prop expensiv? What about the 150/600 gates? overthrouster? prob 12 ramscoop ? Hard resarch for that with prob expensiv. And warp 10 later on? Impossible.

By the way. I tested the race now. Get the points from prop expensiv.This was realy a mistake.

It was a pain to get the nice horde cruisers. weap 14, con 9, en 10 no problem with cheap or normal. But prob 12....

Year 42. little bit late. And prob 11, 12 was payed by the robotids. So against humans....

It woud be better con normal. -f don't planing to play in the nubian time. - f with RS don't need armor. horde cruisers do not need the 300/500 gate. 150/600 is cheaper to build.

so con 9 will be enough for long time. And right on the start? gettig con 3 will be no problem. Without fab building.

So what the hell is so important in the con field for this race?

So aganist the AI my first resume:

get the 35 missing points by con normal seems the best idea.

I know is pretty standard to have con cheap. But in this case?

On the other hand. Giving up 3.5 tech cheap for -f? Is not the best. Ok i will try it now without IFE, prob cheap instead of con and temp immun.

But i haven't play SS without IFE before. I have no idea how to deal with this. to get the prob 5 engine befor starting colonisation will be easy with this race. But SS are not IT. Warp 7 seems to slow. I have the bad feeling - the race will not work without IFE.

AHHHRGGGG.... SS is so expensiv. Maybe there is no way to create a good -f.

[Updated on: Mon, 22 February 2010 18:36]

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Re: I need 35 Points

Mon, 22 February 2010 18:50

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You are right. I was thinking as a F player not a -f player. I hope your race works out.

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Re: I need 35 Points

Mon, 22 February 2010 20:44

Crewman 2nd Class

Messages: 13
Registered: February 2010
Location: Deutschland

No.My SS -f dont work.

Just for Example.Take the same Race but change the PRT to WM.

Now. We don't need 35 Points. We can go with 3.5 cheap tech.And we have still 47 Points left.We can use this points for two clicks in temp wider. Then we make elec expensiv and energie cheap.

My -f SS would never have any chance against this WM.

I had two Games against the AI ( 4 experts in small normal Universe ) onetime with the SS race ( the missing points
paying with only 3.0 tech) another time with the WM.

The SS had a god hab draw an nice starting minerals.

The WM had a bad hab draw and not so fine starting minerals.

But if i take a look at the two game situation in year 45.

The SS was much slower. Even with better hab draw and more starting minerals.

With my WM i had stamped the AI at this Time. There was no HW left. Only some little Planets had survived.

In the other Game ( playing the SS ) there was the job not finished.

So i ask myself again. How i can make a -f SS doing well?

[Updated on: Mon, 22 February 2010 20:56]

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Re: I need 35 Points

Mon, 22 February 2010 21:32

Petty Officer 3rd Class

Messages: 44
Registered: September 2008

Try adding NRSE along with IFE.

This will give you the fuel mizer, which should be your engine of choice until you the IS10 engine.

Fuel mizer outperforms all of other engines until this point. Also when you take NRSE you get the IS10 at prop 11. Much sooner than the w10 ramscoop engine at prop16.

in fact, when you take NRSE you only need to research to prop12 in total for the Overthruster. After that you forgot about researching propulsion until everything else is researched to completion.

Also- looking at your original race design. Take some more techs expensive and increase your mine settings. You are going to be hurting badly taking 10/3/12. You should really try to get to at least 11/3/18 if not higher. Below that your poor planets will be sitting idle because they have no minerals to build anything.

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Re: I need 35 Points

Mon, 22 February 2010 21:40

Lieutenant
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Have you ever dueled people? AI has no intelligence. WM wouldnt need mines and there ships are awesome. AI always seems to build small stacks of armed forces and always way out dated. So WM would do better I think. I never used SS but I would assume its useless against AI because they basically never attack your ships and dont know how to react even if they did see your huge stack of ships so stealth is pointless unless in multiplayer.

Did you get decent tech and resources by year 50? Maybe your other SS game wasnt so good simply because hab draw robbed you blind.

Maybe you can send me the race file in PM and i could look at it to get a better idea?

Dude wrote on Mon, 22 February 2010 21:32

Try adding NRSE along with IFE.

This will give you the fuel mizer, which should be your engine of choice until you the IS10 engine.

Fuel mizer outperforms all of other engines until this point. Also when you take NRSE you get the IS10 at prop 11. Much sooner than the w10 ramscoop engine at prop16.

Fuel mizer is awesome like dude stated.I never use warp four but it goes to warp 9 using not to much fuel. Helps pop management.

[Updated on: Mon, 22 February 2010 21:56]

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Re: I need 35 Points

Mon, 22 February 2010 23:46

Crewman 2nd Class

Messages: 13
Registered: February 2010
Location: Deutschland

No.I never played against humans. I would like to do this.In Fact i create my Races for playing against humans. I run tests for playing against humans ( my best race get 53 K in year 50 )and i readed all the strategy articels in this forum.

And against the AI i never have any problems to win. Even with that bad -f SS. But playing against humans needs diplomacy.And my englisch is not good enough for this.

Back to topic.NRSE for -f? I tested this only one time. With -f IT. Even with IT i never will do this again. Problems over Problems.

What kind of engine you will put on your crusiers? And later on you Planets will need two years for one BBS. Because of the terrible expensive IS 10.

And for 3 LFS with the prob 12 scoop you can build only 2 with the IS 10.And using just FM on LF is not a god option too. Because then you need a lot of SFX. And you have to put Fueltanks on your LF's instead of your nice SS toys.

And worse of all. The BBS with the prob 12 scoop will outperform the IS 10 BBS. Just by numbers. Build for the same resources IS 10 BBS and TGSD BBS. And then run a test.

Playing HG and NRSE is livable for me. Not fine but livable.With -f? I have no idea how to play this without going crazy.

Last but not least. 11/3/18 mines? It seems a overkill to me.
I am not playing HP.OK. 10/3/12 is small.I know. But i'm still missing points to make my SS -f working. I really want cheap tech, IFE,ISB and 1/5 immune hab. 19% PGR is no brainer. And i cant find a way to get this. JOAT,WM,IS,IT,SD. All this PRTS have just to take NAS if Points needed. But with SS? Playing with 2.5 tech instead of 3.5 is this realy the only way?

-f with so expensiv tech.In my opinion: don't work.

[Updated on: Mon, 22 February 2010 23:52]

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Re: I need 35 Points

Tue, 23 February 2010 05:38

Commander

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Sanherib wrote on Tue, 23 February 2010 05:46

Last but not least. 11/3/18 mines? It seems a overkill to me.
I am not playing HP.OK. 10/3/12 is small.I know. But i'm still missing points to make my SS -f working. I really want cheap tech, IFE,ISB and 1/5 immune hab. 19% PGR is no brainer. And i cant find a way to get this. JOAT,WM,IS,IT,SD. All this PRTS have just to take NAS if Points needed. But with SS? Playing with 2.5 tech instead of 3.5 is this realy the only way?

-f with so expensiv tech.In my opinion: don't work.

IMHO SS make indeed poor -f (as does PP) they have very few points and NAS doesn't give them much. On economy level they'll get beaten by about any PRT so it's the stealth that will have to make a difference.
I tried it once in a duel and only survived because the other player had a -f SS as well. Laughing

Laughing

If you want to play -f take an IT or JoaT (assuming CA are not allowed or handicapped).

10/3/12 mines should do for a -f, 11/3/18 is indeed overkill.

I really wouldn't focus on ramscoops too much, there are other ways. If you rule out ramscoops you can take NRSE (points) and prop expensive (points). If you plan to win with CCs you use DDL7+jets on your beamers and AD8 on your jihad CCs.
Should you get to BBs you use AD8+jet on your beamers. IS-10 is indeed too expensive, but can be used on missile BBs (juggers) to get them to a higher battle speed. To keep costs down you can use AD8 on jihad BBs and use only 12 missiles so you can get a higher battle speed. Never ever use the engine between the AD8 and the IS-10, it's as expensive as the IS-10 but without the warp10, so if you don't need that extra bit of battle speed avoid it.

"Build for the same resources IS 10 BBS and TGSD BBS" is a bit flawed. Now I'm a bit confused if the TGSD is the ramscoop with warp10 capability, if it is that means you researched to prop16, that means you probably took prop cheap while the other race took it expensive and saved those points along with the points for NRSE which means he gained elsewhere ...

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Re: I need 35 Points

Tue, 23 February 2010 06:39

Crewman 2nd Class

Messages: 13
Registered: February 2010
Location: Deutschland

IMHO SS make indeed poor -f

You are right. Nevermind what i'm doing in race wizzard. I have to give up more nice things that seems livable.

Mabye it is a Question of Playing Style. But i'm going grazy by playing -f without IfE, without 3.5 cheap tech or without ISB.

But one of this i have to give up by playing -f ss.

The only option would be realy just 3.0 tech. Maybe weap, en cheap, el and con normal. And then prob resarch only to 9 for the first good scoop.Maby this engine woud do it on cruisers. It is better than the AD8.

But for BBS later on the prob 12 scoop and overthrusters will be a hard work.

NRSE? I don't take.Even with prob expensiv.I wrote your tipps Micha. But for me it's terrible. I really hate NRSE even with HG IT. And if i am planing tu use SS -f.....

With scoops. I don't need more then prob 12 too. What is so important going warp 10? The NRSE Guy can't go warp 10 too.Because of the expensive IS 10 he don't use it in most cases..

And if he use the expensive IS 10 with the better Battle speed? What i wrote before. BBS equipped withe the prob 12 scoop will outperform the IS 10 BBS. The scoop BBS will have lower Battle Speed.Nevermind.They will outperform the IS 10 BBS just by numbers.

In fact NRSE means never going more then warp 8 for the most of your warshpis.If you use DDL 7 on you cruisers. You have to go warp 7 all the time, or you will quickly run out of fuel.If you use AD8 on BBS. You have to go warp 8 our your will quickly run out of Fuel. Or you have to build hundreds of SFX.Warp 9 with lighter and cheaper engines sounds much better for me.

All enemy Games? That sound's really good for me. Becaus i'm still afraid of diplomacy Games. Because of my englisch.

Mabey a duell in small normal woul be fine for a first game against humans. I'm sure i would loose it. Because i never played aganist humans before. But never mind. Playing against only the AI is getting boaring. I always win without thinking. ...

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[Updated on: Tue, 23 February 2010 07:05]

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Re: I need 35 Points

Tue, 23 February 2010 08:54

Commander

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Sanherib wrote on Tue, 23 February 2010 12:39

The only option would be realy just 3.0 tech. Maybe weap, en cheap, el and con normal. And then prob resarch only to 9 for the first good scoop.Maby this engine woud do it on cruisers. It is better than the AD8.

Better yes, but you have to look at the price as well, one extra level of expensive prop and no NRSE that gives good RW points (better hab which can give more resources, more minerals, better tech; one tech more cheap, ...)

Quote:

But for BBS later on the prob 12 scoop and overthrusters will be a hard work.

With expensive prop you mean? Indeed, but prop12 comes after con13, weap16, eny10, elec11 ... you should have plenty of resources by that time to crunch a few expensive levels ...

Quote:

NRSE? I don't take.Even with prob expensiv.I wrote your tipps Micha. But for me it's terrible. I really hate NRSE even with HG IT. And if i am planing tu use SS -f.....

Ok, if you don't like it that's your opinion. I play both ways: IFE+NRSE and expensive prop and no IFE no NRSE and cheap/normal prop ... depends on PRT and universe setting.
In fact HG IT is a race that needs ramscoops least of all. It has gates and rams use up the germ for it's factories ...
Of course rams have other advantages than using less fuel and being cheaper, they are light and can help making sure you move last in battles which makes short range (earlier in the tech tree) a more attractive counter (especially horde style) ...

Quote:

With scoops. I don't need more then prob 12 too. What is so important going warp 10? The NRSE Guy can't go warp 10 too.Because of the expensive IS 10 he don't use it in most cases..

True, I wouldn't use the IS-10 much, as said only on (at least jugger) missile BBs, for speed and because these ships present a large investement of your iron and you don't want them to blow up going warp10 ... the first beamer with IS-10 would be a nub ... but you don't want to play till nubs, so ...

Quote:

And if he use the expensive IS 10 with the better Battle speed? What i

...

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Re: I need 35 Points

Tue, 23 February 2010 09:55

Crewman 2nd Class

Messages: 13
Registered: February 2010
Location: Deutschland

Maybe it's just a Question of playing style.Personaly i can't play -f with NRSE and doing well.

The only race i take NRSE is QS IT.

By the way. I started this thread for Questions about -f SS.
But against humans. I never would play this race.

In small normal universe.Duell against the AI i had always the best results with QS IT. I can not tell you the res by year 50. Then the Game was over long before year 50.

This QS IT was doing much better then any other race i ever played. Better than -f CA!

Race like this:

NRSE,OBRM,NAS,RS

grav: O.89 to 5.36
temp: -12 to 156
rad: 29 to 89

1/7

PGR: 19%

fabs: 15/8/14 3g
mines: 10/3/15

weap cheap, con normal,rest expensiv, no start at 3

0 points left over

With this race i was always able to roll out lots of cruisers by year 30. Collodial Cruiser with AD8 and wolverine shields. In year 40 at the latest point the AI was dead.

And if i'd use just bazooka DD's with DLL 7 i was much faster.

Playing -f races i had the same tech so early. But i never had enough res to build ships in huge numbers.

Is this QS IT good enough for trying a game aganist humans?

You have much more experince?Never mind. I'm not planing to win my first game against humans. Just surprise me how fast a good human can kill me. After the game it would be fine if you can have a look to my big mistakes.

[Updated on: Tue, 23 February 2010 10:11]

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Re: I need 35 Points

Tue, 23 February 2010 10:26

Commander

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Sanherib wrote on Tue, 23 February 2010 15:55

Maybe it's just a Question of playing style.Personaly i can't play -f with NRSE and doing well.

Probably, let's leave it at that. Smile

Smile

Quote:

The only race i take NRSE is QS IT.

By the way. I started this thread for Questions about -f SS.
But against humans. I never would play this race.

In small normal universe.Duell against the AI i had always the best results with QS IT. I can not tell you the res by year 50. Then the Game was over long before year 50.

This QS IT was doing much better then any other race i ever played. Better than -f CA!

<snip>

Is this QS IT good enough for trying a game aganist humans?

I've met such a race while playing a (handicapped) -f CA, it gave me a lot of problems. In fact it had even smaller hab and played like a Twin World Wonder, which you would probably do as well in a small universe. From the start an IT would indeed be faster than a CA, better starting techs, two planets (and the smaller the hab how more likely the second planet will be of very high value) while CAs strengths comes a bit later with higher tech for terra fields ...

I'd take your QS IT into a game vs humans. Of course not in a medium with 8 players, but small and more crowded? Yes. But you'll have to play aggressive and if you do there's the risk that everybody joins hands and tries to stop you ...

Quote:

You have much more experince?Never mind. I'm not planing to win my first game against humans. Just surprise me how fast a good human can kill me. After the game it would be fine if you can have a look to my big mistakes.

So we duel? Your QS IT would probably chew any -f SS I can come up with. Smile

Smile

mch ...

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Re: I need 35 Points

Tue, 23 February 2010 11:26

Crewman 2nd Class

Messages: 13
Registered: February 2010
Location: Deutschland

1.OK. The Talk is going a little bit of topic. I hope that's no problem. But about the -f SS is all clear for me. Against the AI just gettig the missing 35 Points by prob expensiv.And have Fun.But against humans I will never play such a race.This probably needs a much more experience player.

2.Yes. It would be fine to have a duel agaist you. What i must do for that. Just sending my race on you by PM

3.I' ve seen your Picture. Against the Duel Club Champion. I probably need the best race i can make.To have a little chance to survive longer then year 40.

So do you think playing as IT Twin World Wonder with hab 1 to 171 would be work better? I only played such a 1 WW race in tiny universe. Playing as WM. And in tiny univers it works great.But in duel agaist human in small? Do you think this race would be doing better then my 1/7 OS?

I never tested this.

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Getting OT (Re: I need 35 Points)

Tue, 23 February 2010 13:00

Commander

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Yes, getting OT here. Smile

Smile

PM me your race, put a PW on it, I'll host.

I've seen quite some duel races and the top of them seems to be IT. IT -f won this year, IT HGish was second, doubt a TWW would win, I was merely guessing that when using your race in the first years you would act like a TWW which would be fairly efficient vs the AI, but I could be wrong ...

mch

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Re: I need 35 Points

Tue, 23 February 2010 14:06

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Sanherib wrote on Mon, 22 February 2010 23:46

No.I never played against humans. I would like to do this.In Fact i create my Races for playing against humans. I run tests for playing against humans ( my best race get 53 K in year 50 )and i readed all the strategy articels in this forum.

53k pretty impressive.

Quote:

And against the AI i never have any problems to win. Even with that bad -f SS. But playing against humans needs diplomacy.And my englisch is not good enough for this.

I never understand people that say there English is bad when there grammar is better than mine. (thats new york school for you lol)
You don't need diplomacy in a 1vs1 duel.When your done dueling that pro and he teaches you stuff, PM me and we will do a fast paced duel to test your race noob vs noob.

Quote:

Back to topic.NRSE for -f? I tested this only one time. With -f IT. Even with IT i never will do this again. Problems over Problems.

When using IT, Fuel Mizer is all you need for beginning colonization on all your ships. Different races require different ships/ strategies for colonizing for max growth. You dont need any other ram scoop engines because youll gate 95% of the time.

Quote:

What kind of engine you will put on your crusiers? And later on you Planets will need two years for one BBS. Because of the terrible expensive IS 10.

And for 3 LFS with the prob 12 scoop you can build only 2 with the IS 10.And using just FM on LF is not a god option too. Because then you need a lot of SFX. And you have to put Fueltanks on your LF's instead of your nice SS toys.

Ad8 on cruisers. Maybe your play style does require rams, they are not in my style.
Maybe use privs with 3 fuel pods and fuel mizer for the long trips.

Quote:

And worse of all. The BBS with the prob 12 scoop will outperform the IS 10 BBS. Just by numbers. Build for the same resources IS 10 BBS and TGSD BBS. And then run a test.

Playing HG and NRSE is livable for me. Not fine but livable.With -f? I have no idea how to play this without going crazy.

La

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Re: I need 35 Points

Tue, 23 February 2010 16:13

Crewman 2nd Class

Messages: 13
Registered: February 2010
Location: Deutschland

The 53 K in year 50 i do not make with that SS! It was an HG IT one immune. My best race ever.

With that -f SS i'm never get just the 25k Benchmark. So it would never work with expensive tech.

In the end. I'm still thinking there is no way to make -f SS doing well.They are more Points missing then just 35. And this missing points make it almoust impossible to create a good working - f SS

In duel by players of the same experince that -f SS would be always eaten from any other - f or HG race.

Ok Micha will try -f SS in duel against me. I'm sure he will win.
But he is playing expert against noob. But if the Players are the same League, the -f SS will never have any chance.

By the way.After finishing the Game with Micha ( i don't think this will be going a long time ) we can have duel too.

Back to topic.

The best way to make a fine SS seems to me a race ike this:

IFE,NAS,OBRM,LSP,RS ( no NRSE you see it )

grav: 0.18 to 5.36
temp: -156 to 156
rad: 65 to 95

1/4

PGR: 19%

fabs: 12/9/12
mines 10/3/15

weap cheap, con normal,el normal, rest expensiv

that SS schould work. Not in duel of course. But in normal games.The eco is small with that fab settig.And i know LSP is not fine.But in testbed i get 29K by year 50. With a good hab draw.

With narrow rad, 19% PGR and just 12 fabs operated the planet development is fast.

And with con an elec normal +spy bonus it schould be possible to build these dangerous 98% steath BB's early enough for trying to kill a neighbour. With a lot of luck of curse.

But i never had played against humans. So maybe i'm wrong.

[Updated on: Tue, 23 February 2010 16:26]

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Re: I need 35 Points

Wed, 10 March 2010 15:05

Lt. Commander

Messages: 809
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I just tried to create a HG SS race, and I been stomped over and promptly set to the side.

I think what is really important for SS is to be able to use their stealth to the maximum possible. This include diplomacy and force you to get some cheap techs which other races would not usually choose. Like electronics and energy. And hopefully use those nice special items to trade with your neighbors.

If you ever try to design a SS which is meant to be played competitively in a free for all game, then you willingly accept a huge handicap from the very start. I can't think of a way this could be pulled off without having a huge amount of luck included in the mix.

The -F SS would at the very least have the advantage of using the points reserved for factories for other advantages. But even then, as it already been pointed out in this thread, the SS race cannot really compete industry wise.

The only way I've been able to have some success with SS is in all out duels on small maps, -F. You need to use your stealth very early with basic attack vessels (destroyers with W4 beam strikes to mind) to harass and down enemy freighters full with colons. Once this is done you grab most of the map while they try to recover... And you have your chance. But if your enemy manage to recover, you are still done for. Stealth is useless against good numbers and superior weapons.

-EoF

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Re: I need 35 Points

Wed, 10 March 2010 17:12

Commander

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Eagle of Fire wrote on Thu, 11 March 2010 09:05

I think what is really important for SS .... and force you to get some cheap techs which other races would not usually choose. Like electronics and energy. And hopefully use those nice special items to trade with your neighbors.

One quirk of the way SS gained tech from others is that the res points you gain are unaffected by your or thier tech settings, so (especially in a 2-player duel) you can very quickly figure out what the tech settings of your opponents are, but perhaps potentially more useful, if you manage to pick cheap techs where they have expensive, then tech level-wise you can gain significantly more from the PRT trait. The trick is to take advantage or those (usually side) techs.

Quote:

If you ever try to design a SS which is meant to be played competitively in a free for all game, then you willingly accept a huge handicap from the very start. I can't think of a way this could be pulled off without having a huge amount of luck included in the mix.

As with CA, AR and all the other must kill quickly races, the answer is diplomacy. Sadly, I fail at this.

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Re: I need 35 Points

Fri, 26 March 2010 08:38

Commander

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SS -f is indeed a tough one... SS is a very expensive PRT. Cost is on a par with ISB or IFE, really.

A -f can get away with 10/3/10 mines, if the hab is decent. You might be able to find a few points there.

Seriously consider dropping IFE. Rely on boosters for fast movement, and docks for refueling the boosters (ideally the freighters themselves shouldn't be taking detours to docks unless it doesn't effect the travel time.)

If you go 10/3/10 and drop IFE, you should have some more points to spend. Put them into habs.

Definitely go with 3.5 cheap techs as a -f SS. -f needs to be able to tech quickly, and 3.5 cheap also helps to exaggerate the SS research (spying) bonus.

Take grav cheap, since you will want to tech to the RamRam early, and this is where your best terraforming will be. Change your habs so you are rad immune, grav narrow, temp wide. This avoids the pop death from the RadRam, and lets you take advantage of the fact planets are denser in the 10-90 clicks grav and temp, than they are in rad.

El should be normal or cheap.

En will probably be expensive, so you can have one of the above as cheap. That WILL hurt in early game, since your shields will suck. The SS cloak comes at en7, you won't want go past that for a while, so it's ok to have this expensive. Later levels you will hope to trade for. If your temp is wide, and grav narrow, then you won't care about temp terraforming - it won't do much anyway.

Any other -f will probably eat you for breakfast. A HG will be a challenge... But your cloaking may carry you through. You're hoping for an HP neighbour, to eat. An AR isn't a bad race to start next to either - eat them or ally with them, to source en tech.

[Updated on: Fri, 26 March 2010 08:43]

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