Home World Forum: All Quiet » NAP Breach

Home » Old Game Forums » All Quiet » NAP Breach

Show: Today's Messages :: Polls :: Message Navigator
E-mail to friend

NAP Breach

Sat, 28 March 2009 00:54

Lt. Commander

Messages: 809
Registered: December 2008
Location: GMT -5

Greetings from the Fornaxians.

We, the Fornaxian senate, are sorry to report that the race known as -Rancor- have without warning and without provocation attacked a lone and unarmed Fornaxian scout craft which was orbiting one of their planet bordering our own space.

We, Fornaxians, are appealed by the increasingly shocking actions taken against us by the -Rancor- since we had a slight territorial dispute with them. We might even even have overlooked the whole incident for the sake of upholding peace would our own craft be caught in between the beams of two ennemy ships in the wars -Rancorians- are now waging daily... But our scout was well alone and busy scanning interesting nebulae residue for scientific research when it was ambushed and destroyed to smithereens by an dishonored -Lemure- class attack destroyer.

Trying to bully a peaceful race like us, Fornaxians, to get a free foohold in our core space no doubt to attack us at the right time is one thing we can easily fend off. Sweeping our defensive mine fields which were not in the way of -Rancor- ships in any way is also something we can live with. But we will not stand idle before the senseless barbarians at our doorstep who threaten the lives and the homes of our very own colons! The -Rancor- civilization will remember this date as we take the matter into our own hands and teach them that willingness to peace does not rhyme with weakness of action.

We, Fornaxians, beg other races and other civilizations to consider carefully the warning we bring here to all ready to listen: do not associate and partake in the criminal scheme(s) of the -Rancorian- people. They are barbarians oblivious to the meaning of diplomacy and ready to do anything to get their way out of this pocket universe. Deal with them with extreme caution, and do not allow them to set foot in your own space unless you wish to bring your own empire down to its knee in front of them!

We, the Fornaxian senate, always wish luck and good fortune to other races who, like us, vow to try to keep the universal peace alive and well. May we all, one day, live together freely.

-May your sibblings always fly high and in peace.
-Sage Arknarr, leader of the Fornaxian Senate.

(OOC: it would be nice to know exactly what happens when someone breach an original NAP. I remember some points but I didn't been able to find anything on it. Maybe I am mixing things up with All Quiet II.)

[Updated on: Sat, 28 March 2009 02:04]

STARS! Wiki
STARS! Wiki Français
I am on a hot streak... Literally.

Report message to a moderator

Re: NAP Breach

Sat, 28 March 2009 09:05

Lieutenant

Messages: 568
Registered: December 2003
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

Eagle of Fire wrote on Sat, 28 March 2009 05:54

(OOC: it would be nice to know exactly what happens when someone breach an original NAP. I remember some points but I didn't been able to find anything on it. Maybe I am mixing things up with All Quiet II.)

(OOC: As the host of All Quiet II, I can tell you that the decision in All Quiet II was that there would be no rules imposed penalty for violating the initial NAP, just the natural consequence of violating any NAP or alliance.

The question was also discussed in All Quiet, but I cannot find where, and I do not remember the outcome of the discussion.

As AlexTheGreat lives in Australia he may have gone to bed now, but he might have an answer for us in the morning his time.)

Med venlig hilsen / Best regards / Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Christian Ræbild / Christian Raebild

Report message to a moderator

Re: NAP Breach

Sat, 28 March 2009 10:32

Officer Cadet 3rd Year

Messages: 261
Registered: February 2003
Location: Finger Lakes NY, USA

Eagle of Fire wrote on Sat, 28 March 2009 00:54

(OOC: it would be nice to know exactly what happens when someone breach an original NAP. I remember some points but I didn't been able to find anything on it. Maybe I am mixing things up with All Quiet II.)

http://starsautohost.org/sahforum/index.php?t=msg&th=413 4&start=0&rid=144&S=b4d4fa86830f6e2fc5ca7e1f464b 1ef2

It is a topic in the All Quiet forum named "NAP: Who must you tell when ending it"

Raindancer

Report message to a moderator

Re: NAP Breach

Sat, 28 March 2009 13:31

Lt. Commander

Messages: 809
Registered: December 2008
Location: GMT -5

AlexTheGreat posted at Mon, 16 February 2009 02:01

That looks like all the feedback I'll get so it's decision time which is:

If anyone breaks an initial current NAP there will be a diplomatic penalty.
1. All players in the game will be informed.
2. The perpetrator must have a status of "Enemy" with all other players for the rest of the game.
3. All other players must set a status of "Enemy" with the perpetrator for the rest of the game.
IOW he is ostrecised.

This does not apply to negotiated/renegotiated NAP agreements & other types of agreements. If someone breaks such an agreement then the backstab would be no different to one in any other game.

STARS! Wiki
STARS! Wiki Français
I am on a hot streak... Literally.

Report message to a moderator

Re: NAP Breach

Sat, 28 March 2009 13:38

Lieutenant

Messages: 568
Registered: December 2003
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark

That just leaves one question: Should AlexTheGreat verify that it was a backstab, or is it enough that the victim announces the beckstab ?

Med venlig hilsen / Best regards / Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Christian Ræbild / Christian Raebild

Report message to a moderator

Re: NAP Breach

Sat, 28 March 2009 14:22

Officer Cadet 3rd Year

Messages: 261
Registered: February 2003
Location: Finger Lakes NY, USA

craebild wrote on Sat, 28 March 2009 13:38

That just leaves one question: Should AlexTheGreat verify that it was a backstab, or is it enough that the victim announces the beckstab ?

In another case where there was an accidental attack, AlexTheGreat looked into it in the turns. He communicated privately with the offended party, who agreed that it was an accident. There were no penalties assigned.

My point is that I do expect that AlexTheGreat will look into it, communicate with the parties involved, and make a decision base on that.

I do think however that the offended party should send a PM or email to AlexTheGreat to make sure that he is aware of the situation.

Raindancer

Report message to a moderator

Re: NAP Breach

Sat, 28 March 2009 16:59

Lt. Commander

Messages: 809
Registered: December 2008
Location: GMT -5

My oppinion also.

AlexTheGreat is the host and thus should take the decision. All what I did so far was to report it and look at the rules. And the rules clearly dictate that any attack on another player is a breach of the NAP.

The only thing which I can think of which could help understand this is that I remember setting my scout to follow the destroyer in question because I wanted to see where it would be going and if he would use it to sweep my nearby defensive minefields. But since there was no third party at that planet and that my orders are not set to attack -Rancor- or unless there is a bug somewhere I am not aware of, I can't understand how he could have attacked me without asking his DD to specifically do so.

STARS! Wiki
STARS! Wiki Français
I am on a hot streak... Literally.

Report message to a moderator

Re: NAP Breach

Sat, 28 March 2009 20:27

Warrant Officer

Messages: 118
Registered: May 2008

It is possible the "default" battle order was never set to attack enemies as by default the "default" battle order is set to attack enemies and neutrals. Hmmm I hope what I said is clearly understood...3 defaults in the same sentence. Razz

Razz

He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you.

Report message to a moderator

Re: NAP Breach

Sat, 28 March 2009 20:33

Lt. Commander

Messages: 809
Registered: December 2008
Location: GMT -5

Well, in any case we need to know exactly what is happening before the next gen... How I will react will definitely change depending of either or not -Rancor- can attack me next turn or not!

Edit: also, I thought it was already said in the game thread that everybody should change their default orders to prevent such problems? If it is the case then it would be no excuse.

[Updated on: Sat, 28 March 2009 20:34]

STARS! Wiki
STARS! Wiki Français
I am on a hot streak... Literally.

Report message to a moderator

Re: NAP Breach

Sat, 28 March 2009 21:24

Lieutenant

Messages: 661
Registered: May 2006
Location: Sydney, Australia

I will look into this matter shortly.

Report message to a moderator

Re: NAP Breach

Sun, 29 March 2009 09:11

Warrant Officer

Messages: 118
Registered: May 2008

Eagle of Fire wrote on Sat, 28 March 2009 20:33

Edit: also, I thought it was already said in the game thread that everybody should change their default orders to prevent such problems? If it is the case then it would be no excuse.

I belive you are correct and I agree that it would not be a legitimate excuse I just have a bad habit of playing devil's advocate.

He who fights with monsters should look to it that he himself does not become a monster...when you gaze long into the abyss the abyss also gazes into you.

Report message to a moderator

Re: NAP Breach

Mon, 30 March 2009 04:53

Lieutenant

Messages: 661
Registered: May 2006
Location: Sydney, Australia

Eagle of Fire wrote on Sat, 28 March 2009 16:59

AlexTheGreat is the host and thus should take the decision. All what I did so far was to report it and look at the rules. And the rules clearly dictate that any attack on another player is a breach of the NAP.

The incident has been deemed accidental. Please read the bit below in blue - it applies to everyone.

The Situation
It appears that a -Rancor- ship gated to a planet with the intention of sweeping an Eagle MF the following year & that said ship was set with a BO already set to do the sweeping at the time the ship was gated.

Thus, it seems that the battle that occured was unintentional and I intend to treat this incident as accidental.

To avoid such a possibility you should:
1. Ensure that your sweeping BO has "Attack Who" set to the race who owns the MF to be swept & not Neutrals & Enemies since that might cause you to attack other races as well.
2. Set the sweeping BO for a ship only in the year you will sweep the MF & not at an earlier time in preparation for that action.
3. Do not target the minelayer laying the MF but, instead, target a waypoint at least 1ly away from it.

Also, please sweep only MFs that are clearly of an offensive nature or ones that block your shipping lanes. It is allowable to sweep MFs that serve no defensive purpose to the race laying the MF & where the MF is layed for the purpose of assisting an ally. If you are unsure of whether such sweeping is OK then ask me for a ruling.

Of course this applies only between races where the original NAP still applies between the 2 races in question. If that NAP has ended then both races can do whatever they like.

I must say that I never envisaged the complexity that has arisen from a seemingly simple NAP rule!

Report message to a moderator

Re: NAP Breach

Mon, 30 March 2009 08:07

Crewman 1st Class

Messages: 39
Registered: January 2004

Earlier in the Game, The Bugs and the -Rancor- had a similar situation in that a Bug scout
attacked a -Rancor- explorer. My first thought was that the Bugs used the situation to confirm
certain Race characteristics of the -Rancor- & I argued that point.
After I thought about it for just One Second I had realized how retarded that notion was.
I do senserly apologize to the Bugs for even considering the possibility that you could have been
so underhanded.
I would like to think that after everyone had fought their hardest & after a long glorious war, in
the end I�d Win. But not if I had to Cheat to do it! The victory would be hollow & pointless
then, wouldn�t it?
Now the shoe is on the other foot and I�m the one who is being accused of cheating: I�d like to
ask the Eagles to think about it for just one second.
Do you actually think that I or any of the other players would have such a low self worth as to
stoop to knowingly breaking the Rules that we have all agreed to play by?
You actually think that I would devalue myself to blowup �your one scout�??

It�s a game. The fun is in the journey.
Because it�s a game, its ok to die trying. You�ll fight another day.
Winnings good to but not at All costs.

Report message to a moderator

Re: NAP Breach

Mon, 30 March 2009 09:44

Officer Cadet 3rd Year

Messages: 261
Registered: February 2003
Location: Finger Lakes NY, USA

-Rancor- wrote on Mon, 30 March 2009 08:07

Earlier in the Game, The Bugs and the -Rancor- had a similar situation [...] After I thought about it for just One Second I had realized how retarded that notion was.

While I do not think 'retarded' is the right descriptor, it certainly was not looking at the 'bigger picture' of the game. On the other hand, given the rules, it is a shock to get attacked without the message ending the NAP.

Quote:

I do sincerely apologize to the Bugs for even considering the possibility that you could have been so underhanded.

No problem. While you did argue initially, you did allow it to be ruled as an accident.

Quote:

Now the shoe is on the other foot and I�m the one who is being accused of cheating

I hope that you will excuse my initial laughter at that. Smile

Smile

Quote:

[...] to blowup �your one scout�??

I think that this is the bigger point here. I do not think that any player here would be willing to be set to enemy by every other player in the game, just to kill one scout. If you or any other player were to break the rules, you would do it big, and make sure that you had some significant gains for it. And you would not do it unless you thought you were big enough to win the game on your own. I do not think that we have any beginners here.

Quote:

It�s a game. The fun is in the journey. Because it�s a game, its ok to die trying. You�ll fight another day. Winnings good to but not at All costs.

Agreed, and I think that the other players (at least those that I have had dealings with so far) are playing with both a sense of fun and honor.

The Big Bug

Report message to a moderator

Re: NAP Breach

Mon, 30 March 2009 09:50

Officer Cadet 3rd Year

Messages: 261
Registered: February 2003
Location: Finger Lakes NY, USA

Combat wrote on Mon, 30 March 2009 08:31

I have been writing a game log that I plan to put into game stories once this game is over. Only then will you have the right to judge my intentions as they were at any one time.

I used to do that before my several year 'leave', and in retrospect wish that I had done that for this game. It is really interesting to see how the game developed through someone else's eyes.

Of course, part of my reason for writing the log, is that by the time the game is over, I cannot remember exactly how things happened in the early game, so writing in retrospect often causes arguments. Smile

Smile

The Big Bug

Report message to a moderator

Re: NAP Breach

Mon, 30 March 2009 11:23

Crewman 1st Class

Messages: 39
Registered: January 2004

I hope that you will excuse my initial laughter at that. Smile

Smile

I know. The Irony is incredible.

[Updated on: Mon, 30 March 2009 11:24]

Report message to a moderator

Re: NAP Breach

Mon, 30 March 2009 15:29

Lt. Commander

Messages: 809
Registered: December 2008
Location: GMT -5

[...]Above posts moved to another the feud thread[...]

... Thread successfully derailed, guys? WTH

WTH

I hope everybody in this game can make the difference between IC and OOC. 'Cause if someone don't then they'll always have the hell of a bad idea of who his opponents really are! Deal

Deal

While I find the reasons behind the ruling to be quite weak, to say the least, I shall accept the decision without further argument.

I'd like to point out that if I had knew that we would be adding rules to the game only to overlook them later on then I would not have bothered to think about adding the aforementioned rule in the first place...

[Updated on: Mon, 30 March 2009 19:41]

STARS! Wiki
STARS! Wiki Français
I am on a hot streak... Literally.

Report message to a moderator

Re: NAP Breach

Mon, 30 March 2009 19:03

Lieutenant

Messages: 661
Registered: May 2006
Location: Sydney, Australia

Eagle of Fire wrote on Mon, 30 March 2009 15:29

While I find the reasons behind the ruling to be quite weak, to say the least, I shall accept the decision without further argument.

I'd like to point out that if I had knew that we would be adding rules to the game only to overlook them later on then I would not have bothered to think about adding the aforementioned rule in the first place...

Hey, give me a break here.

As a host I always attempt fairness. In retrospect I think that Craebild may have been right after all though (no in-game penalty) but I never envisaged the number of marginal situations that could arise & there was some support for a rule at the time.

Rest assured tho that if a deliberate & verifiable NAP breach occurs the prescribed penalty will be applied.

Report message to a moderator

Re: NAP Breach

Mon, 30 March 2009 19:46

Lt. Commander

Messages: 809
Registered: December 2008
Location: GMT -5

I don't think you'd get an argument from me on that subject, Alex. I was part of those who gave their oppinion and who thought it would not make sense not to have penalties when such a thing happen.

Which is also why I am a little disapointed, and the reason of the end of my last post...

STARS! Wiki
STARS! Wiki Français
I am on a hot streak... Literally.

Report message to a moderator

Previous Topic:	slowdown
Next Topic:	Mycelium/Ellurid Feud

Goto Forum:

-=] Back to Top [=-

Current Time: Thu Dec 12 09:20:29 GMT-5 2024