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Pre-doomsday? You mean Juggers then? I dont think i have had Jihads anywhere but on orbitals or purely for quick attack purpose. Got to be slow tech or tiny game, otherwise these early missiles are obsolete too quick.

When gateable defense force is needed so early i usually have beamers. Against Juggers some chaff too. I may build Jugger Galleons, Rogues, BCs or Cruisers as emergency gateable missile force too. It depends on situation, but i rarely build large reserve of these, waste of metal.

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[Updated on: Mon, 26 June 2006 20:03]

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JasonC wrote on Fri, 28 July 2006 07:11

12 jug BBs with sappers in the other slots, no added armor or a few organic. Thruster up front to get speed 1 1/4 if possible. I call them "Pocket BBs". They rock. Later (doom-arm era) they do base killing in support of beam stacks. Sincerely, Jason Cawley

Hey! Is that you *the* JC that was presumed lost inside a collapsing wormhole so long ago while on a research trip ? So it was not a ghost I saw earlier today at rgcs?

[Updated on: Sat, 29 July 2006 04:56]

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m.a@stars wrote on Sat, 29 July 2006 03:15

Hey! Is that you *the* JC that was presumed lost inside a collapsing wormhole so long ago while on a research trip ? So it was not a ghost I saw earlier today at rgcs?

I very much doubt this is the REAL JC. JC was all about details, which is why his posts were, and still are, valued. He never plagerized in the past, and was quick to give others credit. Hence this person claims he calls this design a "pocket BB". However, JC's own words were:

The real JC

I call them "attack BBs" while others have called the "pocket BBs"

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.computer.stars/msg/ dce3fbdf10d91628?&q=pocket+BB

Sure, I could be wrong, and I hope I am wrong, but somehow I doubt it.

-Matt

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mlaub wrote on Sun, 30 July 2006 00:11

I very much doubt this is the REAL JC. JC was all about details, which is why his posts were, and still are, valued. He never plagerized in the past, and was quick to give others credit. Hence this person claims he calls this design a "pocket BB". However, JC's own words were: The real JC I call them "attack BBs" while others have called the "pocket BBs" http://groups.google.com/group/rec.games.computer.stars/msg/ dce3fbdf10d91628?&q=pocket+BB Sure, I could be wrong, and I hope I am wrong, but somehow I doubt it.

Wellll, eight years can do things to anyone's memory...

Wouldn't it be something that not even the original JC was able to live up to our high concept of him?

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JasonC wrote on Sun, 30 July 2006 20:50

Matt, sorry.

No need to apologize, I am just pointing out an inconsistency from a post I remembered. Like I said, I hope I am wrong.

Quote:

Why attack, incidentally? One of the advantages of 12 missile BBs is lower weight, which makes it easier to get speed 1 1/4 in the jug era, which puts starbases in range on turn 1.

Midgame germ crunch on most race designs would simply make this unsatisfactory in even moderate numbers, IMO. Sure, by your math you can build ~35% more missile BB's with the iron saved, but don't forget that you are not saving much on Germ (less than 10% I bet). Where exactly are you going to come up with +25% more germ to build more missile boats? I'd rather have the extra missiles, and deal with bases in a different way.


-Matt

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[Updated on: Mon, 31 July 2006 19:45]

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[Updated on: Mon, 31 July 2006 23:55]

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multilis wrote on Mon, 31 July 2006 22:46

Quote: Sappers do not make them "move wrong" I have a testbed that clearly shows otherwise for real game situation. Yes this won't always/usually be case but there is a risk.

There are a couple quirks, and not many people know about them. I was recently suprised to find an expert player had a misconception about basic battle board movement. I usually only post stuff that could be considered a bug, hence the R2 beamer/R3 sapper bug. <shrug> Believe what you want, but don't ask for a regen.

Quote:

As for waiting for nubs Quote: I think what he is saying is he sometimes can do well enough in mid game big wars with fast beamers and flak alone.

Yep, exactly. Unless he is able to kill the Beamers' escorting chaff, his design doesn't stand a snowflakes chance in the Sahara. Add to the fact that if his missile ships to advance both moves on round 1, it virtually guarentees that his ships will open up on the chaff from the start of the battle to finish (default orders).

As to me fighting early wars, and finding more aggressive opponets...I can't remember a normal type game that I haven't been at war by turn 25, and many times I have fundametally eliminated my first victim by Y40. IIRC, my record is turn 18, for total enemy pop wipe in a medium universe. That quick and aggressive enough for ya?

I only play it slow when I play 4% HE's. I usually try to stay out of war before Y45 with that race type.

-Matt

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Hi,

mlaub wrote on Tue, 01 August 2006 17:12

There are a couple quirks, and not many people know about them. I was recently suprised to find an expert player had a misconception about basic battle board movement. I usually only post stuff that could be considered a bug, hence the R2 beamer/R3 sapper bug. <shrug> Believe what you want, but don't ask for a regen.

Hm, which quirks do you refer too? The only one, I'm aware, is that beamers of range 2 combined with sappers won't close in to beamer range, even if the ships do have the required movements and the sappers would blast off the shield on first blow...
Is there anything else?

mlaub wrote on Tue, 01 August 2006 17:12

As to me fighting early wars, and finding more aggressive opponets...I can't remember a normal type game that I haven't been at war by turn 25, and many times I have fundametally eliminated my first victim by Y40. IIRC, my record is turn 18, for total enemy pop wipe in a medium universe. That quick and aggressive enough for ya?

That seems awfully early to me... How did you manage to take out his HW? For me this sounds like he didn't bother to upgrade the station, nor build any defenses and did take away most of his HW population, or he was AR and didn't upgrade his station either...

Or what's your secret in that?

Tgellan

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JasonC wrote on Mon, 31 July 2006 20:12

You typically get 5% more missile fighting power from the 12s than from the 20s, per kt of iron invested. Yes 35% more ships is about right. Call it a third. Thing is, price is a "two-fer" - it gives moer fp and more dp. So instead of 12 you get 16 missiles for the price. OK, the 20 has more. But the 20 has to KO a third more ships as well, so relative to the dp available it is like 15 - or the 16 are like 21. All the others are bonuses - ship kills through intact shields sooner, battlespeed, last move, gatable, less lumpy building, and sappers. Sappers do not make them "move wrong" and they help enourmously against beam BBs. With their computers, missile BBs tend to have high initiative, and the sappers will drop all the shield of a comparable token the first time they are in range, before they can fire. Then the cap missile hit with double damage and 4 times the armor effect compared to a shielded target. That dramatically reduces the fp the beamer stack first hits you with. As for affording them, beam BBs typically cost 2:2:1 in the minerals, and even the pockets cost vastly more iron than B or G. The iron is the limiter for missile boats. Overall boats are limited by overall minerals and by resources. On G cost, I typically use 4 computers and 3 jammers on these - the dp edge favors going for survival even under fire rather than putting everything in the initiative war. With even jamming to that on my higher-bora beamers, often my beamers were targeted before the missiles. As for how many of them you need, a mostly beam fleet works fine if you have some of these to suppliment it. They kill starbases which otherwise can load up on beams and capacitors, they kill bomber groups, they punish pure capacitor beam designs or low range beams etc. All the combined arms effects you need from missiles. I typically made only a modest token ofthem in the jug or doom era, around 25 ships. Later in life they split into 5s, 6s, 8s, or 10s as the base killing part of planet killer side fleets. The 20 missile design is just useless in my opinion. Way too many eggs (and too much iron) in one basket. With standard torps (omegas e.g.) I would sometimes use 16, with 4 sappers. As for waiting for nubs, um, if your games don't feature major wars until then you need to find some much more aggressive players. Sincerely, Jason Cawley

Glad to see you posting again JC Your archived posts on RCGS are still a very valuable resource!

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