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Too Costly? Tue, 28 January 2003 01:33 Go to next message
zoid is currently offline zoid

 
Ensign

Messages: 348
Registered: December 2002
Location: Murray, KY - USA
I'm having a lot of fun playing with an SS race right now, and I'm also using one in a duel with Micha. Not that I've DONE anything exclusively SS so far, and he's ahead in the rankings, and he pop-dropped the last beautiful planet I colonized (the big meanie!) Evil or Very Mad , but still...

He says SS is too costly for what you get, considering anyone can achieve 98% cloaking. He's an expert, or at least far beyond my level of expertise.

But I think the the 75% base cloaking, tech bonuses, the extra hull, cloaking and scanner toys, combined with the minefield movement bonus of one makes it all worthwhile. Additionally, in a two player game, the SS player gets to know precisely where his opponent is investing research and roughly to what degree, aside from getting a nice piece of it himself.

In my testbed game (comprised of every race and LRT necessary to stage ship battles of any design for combat tests) I made all the races as similar as possible in research, habitat, growth and economy, with the exception of adding RS to half the races and leaving the extra points wasted. With 10 races in the testbed, I didn't want to do any expansion MM so I just gave them all identical default production and research ques and generated 100 turns at a time to get the tech levels up. I'm aware that this isn't exactly a fair test, but in the end the SS's maxed out their tech research WAY before anyone else did.

I think the tech bonus in itself is probably almost adequate compensation for the stiff PRT point penalty in itself. And even if anyone can do 98% cloaking, they have to waste lots of minerals and resources building lots of big heavy cloaker ships for their fleets and then you need more SFE's for fuel because the added mass sucks fuel and that adds more uncloaked mass, needing more bulky cloakers, and then in the end you're missing what is only a few points of cloaking (but that can make a HUGE difference in detectability) so you hop from planet to planet hoping you don't blunder into something in orbit which spoils your su
...




I'M NOT AN EXPERT AND I'M OFTEN PROVEN WRONG. TAKE THAT INTO CONSIDERATION WHEN YOU READ MY POSTS.
Math? Confused Ummm, sure! Nod I do FREESTYLE math.

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Re: Too Costly? Tue, 28 January 2003 05:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
regiss

 
Petty Officer 1st Class

Messages: 65
Registered: November 2002
Quote:

considering anyone can achieve 98% cloaking


That was exactly my point for not playing SS earlier. Then I
did extensive testing and found out that was not true.

Everyone else are able to cloak to ~90% effectively without
nubians. And how bigger economy do You need to have to keep up
with 98% cloaking in nubian era..

The other thing to consider is advatage of NAS, couse You can
use it easily. Races without NAS (nub filled with last scan)
tend to be able to detect 98% cloaked ships to ~25 l.y. (when
will You get those..) While in earlier stages of the game it
drops to ~12 l.y. And then to ~6 l.y. with cheap scans. With
NAS detection becomes quite easier.

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Re: Too Costly? Tue, 28 January 2003 14:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

Messages: 2343
Registered: November 2002
Location: Belgium GMT +1
Grin Expert? Me? Zoid is right in only one thing: don't believe anything that he thinks he's right Wink

regards,
mch

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Re: Too Costly? Tue, 28 January 2003 17:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jeffimix is currently offline jeffimix

 
Officer Cadet 1st Year

Messages: 218
Registered: November 2002
Location: EGR, MI, USA
Yep, the onyl 98% cloaked galleons or battleships, or bombers you'll ever see belong to a SS race. No need to build overcloakers, or to get nuibans gives SS a very large advantage in using cloaked fleets. So maybe if you're opponent has 98% over-cloaking nubians, his superior economy will beat you in cloaking units. I think that the research advantage is quite nice, it can be very large if both you and the ohter person in a duel research the same thing at once. Also SS can take NAS to help recoup high point cost. Chameleon scanners, and Robber Barons work fine if you keep them everywhere with FF's.


Email me as ----jeffimix@----yahoo.com----
(remove dashes)
The spamatron! run!!!

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Re: Too Costly? Tue, 28 January 2003 18:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

Messages: 2343
Registered: November 2002
Location: Belgium GMT +1
Taking NAS gives you _very_ little points when you are SS. Just look at picking NAS as the first LRT, SS gets 41 points, SD gets 109 points, JoaT gets 95.
Only PP gets even less in return, only 15 RW points ...

Other examples with some common LRTs like IFE, NRSE, OBRM and RS as SS gives you 25 points if you pick NAS. True it's the fifth LRT so you get less points anyway, but the SD still gets 91 RW points! JoaT gets 78.
(And no, by common I am in NO way starting a discussion that SS should take these LRTs Grin)

Add in LSP (so NAS is the sixth LRT) and SS PAYS with 1 RW point to take NAS! SD still gets 65 points, JoaT 52.

So yes you gain something picking NAS, but not much ...

regards,
mch

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Re: Too Costly? Tue, 28 January 2003 20:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
regiss

 
Petty Officer 1st Class

Messages: 65
Registered: November 2002
The point in picking NAS with SS is not a RW point gain, but to
allow double range scans in detecting cloaked ships, IMHO.

Being SS, I'd take NAS even if it was my Nth LRT (& it would
cost me RW points).

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Re: Too Costly? Wed, 29 January 2003 04:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gible

 
Commander

Messages: 1344
Registered: November 2002
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

I agree...the point of SS+NAS is not so much the points gained but rather the relative lack of disadvantages.

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Re: Too Costly? Wed, 29 January 2003 05:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

Messages: 2343
Registered: November 2002
Location: Belgium GMT +1
regiss wrote on Tue, 28 January 2003 20:27

The point in picking NAS with SS is not a RW point gain, but to
allow double range scans in detecting cloaked ships, IMHO.

Being SS, I'd take NAS even if it was my Nth LRT (& it would
cost me RW points).



True, the one time so far that I played SS I picked NAS too, you don't lose the penscan ability, you get double range and you still gain _some_ points, so why not?

I merely wanted to point out that NAS is not a point mine like it is for other races, not by far ... and therefor SS still has a disadvantage, picking NAS gives only a very small boost in other areas (like economy for example) while other races benefit a lot from it.
Sure the other races _do_ lose their penscans (except for JoaT of course) but you can work around that, most simple way is just to trade penscans with an ally, et voila you're economy got a nice boost _and_ the negative LRT is canceled!
Personally I'd rather play an SD with NAS than an SS with NAS, I either hope to trade and if not I'll manage, afterall penscans are _nice_ they are not _necessary_

regards,
mch

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Re: Too Costly? Fri, 31 January 2003 16:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
freakyboy is currently offline freakyboy

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 583
Registered: November 2002
Location: Where the clowns can't re...
Something I always wondered was why NAS gives SS and PP so little points when it still gives JOATs loads.

NAS seems to be a VERY popular pick to get some points.

In a universe of stars players who've studied those damned 30k+ by 2450 races the everyday joe needs to stay competetive - so we need the high growth rates and cheap tech.

I think the 25k by 2450 mark has spawned the NAS and -F junkies.

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Re: Too Costly? Wed, 13 February 2008 14:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
knightpraetor is currently offline knightpraetor

 
Chief Warrant Officer 1

Messages: 154
Registered: October 2006
hey leave well enough alone..-f and nas makes it so much easier for us n00bs:)

but ya..i really want to play an HP but always get the feeling they aren't viable..and HG is ok..but harder to play i think

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Re: Too Costly? Wed, 13 February 2008 21:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LEit is currently offline LEit

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT
I think NAS gives full points to JOAT because in an earlier version of Stars, JOAT scanners weren't as good, I don't remember the details, but I think it was either fixed (not adjusted by tech) or no pen scanners.

My biggest problem with SS is not that other races can get 98% cloaking too once they get nubians, but that there is a race that completely cancels their cloaking advantage. Inner Strength races that get tacyons can fairly easily spot any cloaked ship with a moderate investment. IS have lots of other economic and military advantages too, making them rank up there with IT and JOAT, after CA of course...

In a duel, your chances of running into an IS are fairly small, however in a multi player game, it's more likely, and since they cancel the SS's main strength, it can be devastating. One game I was in, the one SS in it found there were 3 IS players in the game...



- LEit

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Re: Too Costly? Sun, 01 June 2008 00:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ptolemy is currently offline Ptolemy

 
Commander

Messages: 1008
Registered: September 2003
Location: Finland
IS tachyon detectors do not cancel out SS cloaking as per common perception. I have posted the guts of the tachyon detector math. All the TD does is 'reduce' cloaking efficiency and, beleive me, a 98% cloaked ship reduced to 87% cloaked is still a formidable opponent.

Ptolemy




Though we often ask how and why, we must also do to get the answers to the questions.

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Re: Too Costly? Sun, 01 June 2008 05:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
Commander

Messages: 1369
Registered: May 2008
However, a 79% cloaked ship (which is the max of TD from 98%) is not nearly as formidable, as it can be spotted easily as long as you keep those scanner ships around. I should note that IS scanner ships can spot anything in deep space from a distance of 212 ly even *without* NAS. They can spot anything around a planet from 84 ly, which isn't as superb (less than 1 year at warp 10), but is still enough warning time because of Speed Traps, the ultimate blockade. Not that I'm saying SS is bad, just that late-game IS obliterates them.

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Re: Too Costly? Tue, 03 June 2008 13:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Effluviant Walrus is currently offline Effluviant Walrus

 
Senior Chief Petty Officer

Messages: 91
Registered: May 2008
Location: New York, US
I've always seen SS as a PRT meant to be played very aggressively, with sneak attacks and all. So yes, an IS in late-game will make their cloaking ineffective, but its the SS's job to have conquered enough territory to make up for marginally effective cloaking and its general disadvantage against the economic PRTs. Thats why the 75% inherent cloaking is so useful; its not much use to Nubians which can get 98% regardless of PRT, but it gives a great advantage to the early DDs, CCs, and especially frees up electronics slots for cloaked BBs.

So overall, I'd hardly call a SS "not worth it" just because one other PRT has a late-game advantage against it. There are 9 other PRTs SS can sneak attack and have 98% cloak against; by the time an SS fights an IS with Tachs it should have already gobbled up another race or two and have a greater economy due to sheer numbers of planets.

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Re: Too Costly? Tue, 03 June 2008 13:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LEit is currently offline LEit

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT
Tachyons arn't a late game counter, just middle game. For BBs you'll want con 13 and elec 11 fairly soon, getting to elec 14 isn't that hard, especially if you know you need to because there is an SS around.

Also, if there is a powerful SS around, tachyons become valuable.

The SS PRT is too expensive to be able to easily win early like that.



- LEit

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Re: Too Costly? Wed, 04 June 2008 00:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
Commander

Messages: 1369
Registered: May 2008
They still work admirably in the lategame though. The reason I said late game IS is that they might not have the resources or the tech for Tachyon Detector Nubians, which are what really finishes SS. Tachyon Frigates are alright though, but not the giant extended middle finger to SS that TD nubs are.

@Walrus: IS aren't purely economic. Their warfighting is very powerful too.

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Re: Too Costly? Wed, 04 June 2008 11:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Soobie

 
Officer Cadet 3rd Year

Messages: 270
Registered: May 2007
Location: Australia
magic9mushroom wrote on Wed, 04 June 2008 13:49

@Walrus: IS aren't purely economic. Their warfighting is very powerful too.

IS should be banned Surprised

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Re: Too Costly? Wed, 04 June 2008 23:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
Commander

Messages: 1369
Registered: May 2008
Um...what?

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Re: Too Costly? Thu, 19 June 2008 07:54 Go to previous message
Soobie

 
Officer Cadet 3rd Year

Messages: 270
Registered: May 2007
Location: Australia
magic9mushroom wrote on Thu, 05 June 2008 13:03

Um...what?

Just messing around.

SS will usually target IS pretty early ... either for take out or alliance Smile

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