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Some comments as follows:

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High-Cloaking Potential. All your ships get a 50% inherit cloak. That means you get 50% cloaking for free.

Should read 75%. Perhaps it was 50% cloaking at some stage??? but it's been 75% for a long time.

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Don't plan to be very popular along the course of the game.

Lol, that's about right. As SS you're very often the first target, especially in more advanced games.

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Try to keep a high habitability value with 1 in 3, a growth rate above 12%, and at around 2000 resources when you have 500,000 people on a planet when it is at max. factories. These are only my opinions. However, I think that if you can't meet these minimums, the Silent will be doomed. I have not experimented with low growth rate SS with lots of habitability.

Hmmm ... A couple of problems there. 1 in 3 planets will most likely mean some decent planets, but also a high number of small greens and large yellows. Lots of planets is good, but they have to be terraformed and it costs you in the race wizard.

A growth rate well above 12% will be required to survive. 17% or better is the target IMO.

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Since many covert ships will be away for a long time, you should not pick "No Ramscoop Engines" for this PRT. Additional ships (like Fuel-Xports) to a covert fleet will lower their overall cloaking. "Improved Fuel Efficency" will save fuel and help you escape faster. However, it seems like a real small advantage to me.

Absolutely have to disagree there. There are those that will argue otherwise but IMHO IFE is essential for SS and the reasons are as follows: IFE would give you the FM. Being that SS starts with no Prop tech at all you get the "wonderful and fabulous" QJ5 as your default engine
Even if you research to Prop3 (or get it from others researching it) you're still stuck with a hopeless engine.
DDL7 (prop5) is the first acceptable (non-IFE) engine and it's more expensive than the FM. Furthermore if you choose IFE you get one starting l

[Updated on: Thu, 02 September 2004 12:45]

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Steve1 wrote on Thu, 02 September 2004 09:54

Absolutely have to disagree there. There are those that will argue otherwise but IMHO IFE is essential for SS and the reasons are as follows: IFE would give you the FM. Being that SS starts with no Prop tech at all you get the "wonderful and fabulous" QJ5 as your default engine

For short hops, and scouting, it is fine. You can use frigates with the QJ5 and fuel tanks as boosters and scouts. It is bearable with many races, and can actually tilt the game in your favor later on from the RP points you gain.

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Now IFE is expensive, there's no doubt, so to offset most of the costs choose NRSE as well - problem solved

No, you are just shifting the "cost" to something else. I'm not saying that IFE and the FM is bad...You just need to look at the tradeoffs involved. Stating that this is the solution, period, doesn't fit all the games you may enter, or ships you may build. Sometimes this is the right solution, somtimes it isn't. All you are doing is closing your mind to a potentially better way of doing things, in some universes/designs.

Most people pick ramscoops with a SS, for simple fuel reasons. Another example is I always use scoops with a HE, until the TS-10 (no gates). Or, I hardly ever take scoops with a IT, but with a -f IT I feel it is a must.

Breaking this down even further, I will always put scoops on Missile boats, if I have scoops. However, I put the TS-10 (if I have it) on Beamers and my Torp boats...

-Matt

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Further comments:

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Because few players can accomplish this with SS, they will think SS is a weak PRT. SS is not weak. Like any other PRT, it is possible to dominate if you play them right, just like AR.

SS and AR "can be" formidible PRT's to go up against if they're in the right hands, but they're still comparitively weak compared to most other PRT's.
SS has too many points disadvantages to begin with. Some of the toys are fabulous and it's a good fun race to play, but I would ask you this: How many players do you know that have actually won with SS (or AR)?
Off topic - IMHO, the biggest bummer with AR is having a maxed out world attacked by a high initiative suicide fleet and losing 3 million colonists.

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I have not experimented with low growth rate SS that uses a mass-colonizing strategy like HE.

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Try to keep a high habitability value with 1 in 3, a growth rate above 12%

I think I see where your idea comes from to have 12% (minimum)growth rate and high availability of green worlds. The thing is a 6% HE (therefore doubled to 12%) tri-immune race would have every planet available as 100% green and therefore no terraforming costs. If you do some testbeds with this 1 in 3 SS race you'll find that the cost is too high for the purported benefits.

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No, you are just shifting the "cost" to something else. I'm not saying that IFE and the FM is bad...You just need to look at the tradeoffs involved. Stating that this is the solution, period, doesn't fit all the games you may enter, or ships you may build. Sometimes this is the right solution, somtimes it isn't. All you are doing is closing your mind to a potentially better way of doing things, in some universes/designs. Most people pick ramscoops with a SS, for simple fuel reasons. Another example is I always use scoops with a HE, until the TS-10 (no gates). Or, I hardly ever take scoops with a IT, but with a -f IT I feel it is a must. Breaking this down even further, I will always put scoops on Missile boats, if I have scoops. However, I put the TS-10 (if I have it) on Beamers and my Torp boats... -Matt

Hmmm .....
I can see where you were coming from when you suggested trying non-IFE with an IT race and in truth I might be inclined to test it out in a packed universe, but SS well I don't know about that.

If you take the SS race and select IFE, NRSE and Prop +75% you end up with -3 points.
You then get the very cool FM by researching only one Prop level and receive 15% fuel savings. It easily travels at warp9 unassisted for quite some distance (depending on weight, fuel availability and no. of engines). As already mentioned you also get the IS-10 engine at Prop11 and if you decide to choose Grav immune, you need to research no higher than Prop12 for a long, long, time.

If instead you don't select either IFE or NRSE and you then choose Prop -50% you end up with -72 points.
I'll assume that Prop should be at -50% since you really do need to urgently research Prop to at least level 8 or 9 in the early stages.

So whilst I'm researching Weap or Cons and getting good speed out of my cheap FM engines, your race is needing to focus on prop and furthermore you start with a significant point disadvantage in the race wizard.

I do hear what you're saying when you mention abo

[Updated on: Thu, 02 September 2004 15:31]

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Steve1 wrote on Thu, 02 September 2004 14:19

I'll assume that Prop should be at -50% since you really do need to urgently research Prop to at least level 8 or 9 in the early stages.

I've actually been able to swing it with prop expensive. Yea, it was ugly...but i did it. For the most part, you are correct assuming you need at least Prop normal. The first OK scoop is at Prop 7, IIRC, and it is about on par with the FM. That's doable relatively cheaply.

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So whilst I'm researching Weap or Cons and getting good speed out of my cheap FM engines, your race is needing to focus on prop and furthermore you start with a significant point disadvantage in the race wizard.

Can't argue, but it hasn't ever hurt me. Remember, the IS-10 is a good engine, but it is expensive in minerals, resources and weight. Plus, you still need to get to Prop 12 to get the OT. That means you've had to research 46k to get Prop 12, starting from prop 1 and at +75%. It will take me 54K to get to Prop 16, if I have it set to -50%.

That's not a huge difference, I'd say. Now, how about that weight, mineral and resource difference? Are the cost in RP points starting to make more sense? How about the 500K difference to get the TS-10?

I was a firm advocate of the approach you are speaking of, up to a few years ago. Funny to say that I had this same argument with more experienced players too. As you can see, I have changed my perspective a bit.

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I would find it extraordinarily difficult to not choose IFE after selecting SS as my PRT.

Playing SS, I once used a couple fleets to terrorize several races. I think I was able to destroy around 16000 factories, and a sizeable number of colonists. The factories were the main target, tho. Not only was I successful at taking out industry, but in doing so I also made them divert valuable resources and minerals elsewhere. Building and rebuilding factories, defenses, minelayers, scouts etc. cost them *way* more than my 2 fleets cost me (they obviously didn't know what to do,

[Updated on: Thu, 02 September 2004 17:12]

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Expensive? in what way?

Expensive as compared to the FM.

I could rehash the what was already said about the whole early germ requirement issue but we've already been down that path.

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The first OK scoop is at Prop 7, IIRC, and it is about on par with the FM.

Nitpick - actually that's the sub-galactic fuel scoop which, according to my manual, is Prop8.
You'd be better off with the Prop9 scoop IMO.
Either way both of those scoops need Energy2/3 whereas the FM doesn't.

Keep in mind that even though the yellow engine is heavier and more expensive than the Prop9 scoop, it's still more fuel efficient at higher speeds.
I usually find that I can easily trade for Prop11/12, so having it at +75% is not significant. Let's face it, who wouldn't give you Prop12 in exchange Weap12 or Cons12

Getting Prop23 is usually a little trickier, but you can certainly make do with the green engine. Travelling at warp10 before all the ram-scoop races is very cool.
I'm also of the opinion that the EP benefits NRSE races more so than ramscoop races and that only requires Prop13 - one more level than I normally need (until the endgame).

Anyhow, the main points that I'm trying to make is with the SS / IFE (FM) combination I "initially" get the following benefits:

- Cheaper engines
- Faster engines
- More functional engines
- I only need to research one Prop level
- No Energy research requirement
- I get more initial points available in the race wizard than you (by choosing IFE/NRSE/Prop+75% - and that also applies if you choose prop normal).
- They consume no germ to manufacture (more available for building factories)
- I get to focus on the war tech's like Cons and Weap instead of wasting time needlessly researching Prop to level 9 (that can come later).
- Less requirement for fuel boosters / fuel exports (therefore more resources and minerals to devote to other important areas)

I'm of the opinion that with all these benefits, my race gets off to a better start (assuming all things

[Updated on: Thu, 02 September 2004 18:15]

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Steve1 wrote on Fri, 03 September 2004 00:03

Let's face it, who wouldn't give you Prop12 in exchange Weap12 or Cons12

Who ... who. All these NRSE IFE, weap and con cheap rest expensive guys. They dont have it. Its possible to sell prop 9 to them for weapons 12. Similarily electronics 19 one can anytime sell it for weapons or construction 26 and usually for both with different partners.

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Its possible to sell prop 9 to them for weapons 12. Similarily electronics 19 one can anytime sell it for weapons or construction 26 and usually for both with different partners.

If someone tried to offer Prop9 for my Weap12 I'd tell them to get lost. Same with Elec19 for Weap or Cons26.
You must be a damn good negotiator if you can actually achieve this.

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Heh? I am far from expert negotiator but such deals are often offered by the other side.

You got jihads, then you go research construction 13. Or you cntinue with weapons because you know where to buy construction for it.

Meanwhile you poke around where the hell you get these 3 levels of prop for 300/500 gate and i am probably the only one with prop 10 that i took for terra, but thats impossible to trade i can build only prop 9 scrappers. You offer weaps 9? I have weapons 10 probably so i disagree. You say me to research 2 levels more prop? What good negotiator you are to make me research 2 levels of tech i dont need right now?

I got my prop 9 scoop and terra. So you offer weapons 12 for populsion 9 or just shut up. No need to tell me to get lost cause im offering nothing i am simply listening and ready to trade. You can go and put 9k into prop yourself and i can put 9k into weapons myself or we can trade.

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Hi!

Steve1 wrote on Fri, 03 September 2004 05:12

If someone tried to offer Prop9 for my Weap12 I'd tell them to get lost. Same with Elec19 for Weap or Cons26.

Going from elec-16 to 19 it has lowered the germ price of my late game Nub by 12%. Being a weap-cheap-rest-expensive HP at that time, with germ the scarcest mineral, that offered me for FREE 12% more Nubs (or about 150!). I'd call that a good deal. Actually, it was. I've been selling weapons only, and DIDN'T BOUGHT a single level in energy and con above 6-7 and elec from 4 to 16. And I didn't SELL weap-26, I've GIVEN it. Was so big at that time I could afford that.
Eh, nice memories, pitty I couldn't finish that game.
BR, Iztok

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I'm also of the opinion that the EP benefits NRSE races more so than ramscoop races and that only requires Prop13 - one more level than I normally need (until the endgame).

One clarification I'd like to make is that the above statement would have been based on also selecting Grav immune. Upon reflection I choose that in quite a few less than half the games I play, so I can't quote it as an absolute.

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Heh? I am far from expert negotiator but such deals are often offered by the other side. You got jihads, then you go research construction 13. Or you continue with weapons because you know where to buy construction for it. Meanwhile you poke around where the hell you get these 3 levels of prop for 300/500 gate and i am probably the only one with prop 10 that i took for terra, but that's impossible to trade i can build only prop 9 scrappers. You offer weaps 9? I have weapons 10 probably so i disagree. You say me to research 2 levels more prop? What good negotiator you are to make me research 2 levels of tech i dont need right now? I got my prop 9 scoop and terra. So you offer weapons 12 for propulsion 9 or just shut up. No need to tell me to get lost cause im offering nothing i am simply listening and ready to trade. You can go and put 9k into prop yourself and i can put 9k into weapons myself or we can trade.

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Going from elec-16 to 19 it has lowered the germ price of my late game Nub by 12%. Being a weap-cheap-rest-expensive HP at that time, with germ the scarcest mineral, that offered me for FREE 12% more Nubs (or about 150!). I'd call that a good deal. Actually, it was. I've been selling weapons only, and DIDN'T BOUGHT a single level in energy and con above 6-7 and elec from 4 to 16. And I didn't SELL weap-26, I've GIVEN it. Was so big at that time I could afford that.

Now see the trouble with me is that I have these fixed ideas in my head of what things are worth, but in truth I should know better. Every situation is different and I thank you guys for reminding me of that!

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I am testing many SS races in games against the AI. Unfortunately, some SS tactics will not work on the AI.

Um why are you wasting points using SS against the AI?
The AI is so dumb that even if your weaker (other PRT selected - non-cloaked) fleets are targetted, you can easily evade and/or hide behind planets.
The AI can see your colonies just as easily as any other race. It's only your starbases and ships that are cloaked.
SS is a good and fun race, but against the AI a total waste IMO.
On the other hand, an SS race can truly devastate a human opponent.

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