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Re: Slow boat to China

Thu, 12 March 2015 05:44

XAPBob
Messages: 957
Registered: August 2012

Lt. Commander

I had been looking at CA, thinking that it was pretty easily strong enough with that hab, and a quick test confirmed it. You may only have ~15% growth, but that pop keeps growing, and will sustain close to that 15% for a long while thanks to the TF abilities of the CA.

Could force non -f as well.... I was hoping that -TT would have enough of a detrimental effect, but I suspect that the points from -f are too many for the CA, compensating for the extreme hab.

Some time passes...
That does make it hard!
Maybe just "factory cost no more than 15 res", to enourage some factory capability, and nerf the massive points mine (150ish between 15 and 25)...

Some time passes...
That is painful, but possible, can still maintain that ~15% PGR - although the tech isn't as good it is still better than I've seen in some games.
Would need to playtest, but I suspect that as an alliance member it would still be powerful. I'd certainly like to start next to that race...

[Updated on: Thu, 12 March 2015 06:54]

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Re: Slow boat to China

Thu, 12 March 2015 09:16

jscoble
Messages: 116
Registered: January 2008
Location: Cape Town

Warrant Officer

Regarding penalties for CA - let's keep in mind why this is considered necessary. "Instaforming" allows a CA race to develop its colony planets, and therefore its economy, so much faster. But an OBRM NAS JoAT in the end will still have the bigger economy from those 132% size worlds, and the free point-mine that NAS is for it.
So the idea is to slow down the CA PRT - not to cripple it to the point of unplayability.
I'd say that mandating a slower PGR will do the job. Perhaps with some point penalties as well?
(Design a normal-hab, 19% PGR race, then turn down the PGR to 15% without changing anything else. How many leftover points do you get?)

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Re: Slow boat to China

Thu, 12 March 2015 09:37

Asmodai
Messages: 214
Registered: February 2012

Officer Cadet 1st Year

Quote:

OBRM NAS JoAT in the end will still have the bigger economy from those 132% size worlds, and the free point-mine that NAS is for it.

Provided, that it survives to the point, when it will be able to match CA who will be have everything much faster. In comm game - this is not problem of catching only CA - but also catching whole alliance of CA, as his allies will be have thouse techs/eco at their disposal much faster than anyone else. That will make any game completely unbalanced and one sided. No other race get in-game resource output for free (maybe except IS but they have at least some build-in drawbacks) that`s why ban for CA seems reasonable for me.
I`ll test some low PGR CA during this weekend, but -f CA with broad hab no imm can definitely match any other -f in efficiency. I dont have any hope, that by restricting only settings in RC it will be possible to hurt any race.

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Re: Slow boat to China

Thu, 12 March 2015 13:22

XAPBob
Messages: 957
Registered: August 2012

Lt. Commander

Except the CA has live anywhere, with better habs (well, assuming JoAT hasn't taken TT), then the CA is 4.5k resources per planet better off as well.

Ok, he's out resourced, ibut those 4.5k resources can be undone by the CA...

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Re: Slow boat to China

Thu, 12 March 2015 14:06

jscoble
Messages: 116
Registered: January 2008
Location: Cape Town

Warrant Officer

Asmodai wrote on Thu, 12 March 2015 15:37

Quote:
OBRM NAS JoAT in the end will still have the bigger economy from those 132% size worlds, and the free point-mine that NAS is for it.
Provided, that it survives to the point, when it will be able to match CA who will be have everything much faster. In comm game - this is not problem of catching only CA - but also catching whole alliance of CA, as his allies will be have thouse techs/eco at their disposal much faster than anyone else. That will make any game completely unbalanced and one sided. No other race get in-game resource output for free (maybe except IS but they have at least some build-in drawbacks) that`s why ban for CA seems reasonable for me.
I`ll test some low PGR CA during this weekend, but -f CA with broad hab no imm can definitely match any other -f in efficiency. I dont have any hope, that by restricting only settings in RC it will be possible to hurt any race.

Well, unless there's more than one CA in the game.

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Re: Slow boat to China

Fri, 13 March 2015 05:17

Asmodai
Messages: 214
Registered: February 2012

Officer Cadet 1st Year

Quote:

Well, unless there's more than one CA in the game.

That argument does not help in determining CA penalties;)

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Re: Slow boat to China

Fri, 13 March 2015 09:05

XAPBob
Messages: 957
Registered: August 2012

Lt. Commander

True - is the wide hab enough?
I'm not convinced that it is. I'll run a test, and my only other suggestion is to limit factory cost to 15 at most.

Still workable with comms I reckon, but requires an ally at that point.

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Re: Slow boat to China

Fri, 13 March 2015 16:58

ManicLurch
Messages: 462
Registered: May 2009

Lt. Junior Grade

There are a few good ideas for balancing CA in this thread. I suggest when running testbeds to verify these ideas, also test the impact of their ally receiving OAs, which is a huge boost to their ally. I would think that a good result would be one that slows down the CA enough to compensate for both their own free terraforming as well as their allies terraforming from OAs.

[Updated on: Fri, 13 March 2015 16:59]

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Re: Slow boat to China

Fri, 13 March 2015 17:26

skoormit
Messages: 665
Registered: July 2008
Location: Alabama

Lieutenant

XAPBob wrote on Thu, 12 March 2015 04:44

I had been looking at CA, thinking that it was pretty easily strong enough with that hab, and a quick test confirmed it. You may only have ~15% growth, but that pop keeps growing, and will sustain close to that 15% for a long while thanks to the TF abilities of the CA.

Could force non -f as well.... I was hoping that -TT would have enough of a detrimental effect, but I suspect that the points from -f are too many for the CA, compensating for the extreme hab.

Some time passes...
That does make it hard!
Maybe just "factory cost no more than 15 res", to enourage some factory capability, and nerf the massive points mine (150ish between 15 and 25)...

Intriguing.

Such a restriction (on maximum factory cost) is tantamount to charging a 150 point penalty for a CA to be -f.
If the CA stays +f, he does not pay the penalty, but he has a harder time compensating for the slow ramp of the 15% pgr in the early game, when germ is tight. He gets even more resources in the long term, in theory, but he has a harder time competing for planets in the early game.

What we need's a few good taters.

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Re: Slow boat to China

Fri, 13 March 2015 21:37

LittleEddie
Messages: 519
Registered: February 2011
Location: Delaware

Lieutenant
Helped track down one or more Stars bugs

You could also not let a CA build OAs.

This would limit the value of any alliance.

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Re: Slow boat to China

Sat, 14 March 2015 06:14

XAPBob
Messages: 957
Registered: August 2012

Lt. Commander

I think it would somewhat limit the attractiveness of a ca as an ally rather than a tasty snack...

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Re: Slow boat to China

Sun, 15 March 2015 16:32

jscoble
Messages: 116
Registered: January 2008
Location: Cape Town

Warrant Officer

LittleEddie wrote on Sat, 14 March 2015 03:37

You could also not let a CA build OAs.

This would limit the value of any alliance.

Might as well just ban CA from the game and have done with it then.

Or should you also ban IT from gating cargo for it's allies? AR from sharing minerals? Or... etc.

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Re: Slow boat to China

Sun, 15 March 2015 17:16

LittleEddie
Messages: 519
Registered: February 2011
Location: Delaware

Lieutenant
Helped track down one or more Stars bugs

Players have been trying for 20 years to fix the CA problem, I haven't seen a good answer yet.

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Re: Slow boat to China

Sun, 15 March 2015 19:25

neilhoward
Messages: 1112
Registered: April 2008
Location: SW3 & 10023

Commander

The CA penalty when we played 2nd Diadochi Wars disallowed TT and required 250RW points set to defenses.

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Re: Slow boat to China

Tue, 17 March 2015 14:38

franknorman
Messages: 20
Registered: June 2012

Crewman 1st Class

LittleEddie wrote on Sun, 15 March 2015 17:16

Players have been trying for 20 years to fix the CA problem, I haven't seen a good answer yet.

The sort of non-monster CA I had in mind was 1-immune, 2-narrow, 15% PGR or less, maybe with ARM and LSP. Not a "25k by 2450" design, nor intended to be. (Frankly it annoys me how much everything has come to revolve around that sort of thing)

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Re: Slow boat to China

Wed, 18 March 2015 05:31

XAPBob
Messages: 957
Registered: August 2012

Lt. Commander

Would "design a valid race, then subtract 5% PGR" work?

(I've not checked the points penalty that equates to btw)

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Re: Slow boat to China

Wed, 18 March 2015 09:29

Asmodai
Messages: 214
Registered: February 2012

Officer Cadet 1st Year

Quote:

Would "design a valid race, then subtract 5% PGR" work?

If the points earned through PGR reduction will not be spended, it can work. If thouse points will be spended on other things - it will not work.

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Re: Slow boat to China

Wed, 18 March 2015 10:02

XAPBob
Messages: 957
Registered: August 2012

Lt. Commander

No, that's without respending the points...

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Re: Slow boat to China

Wed, 18 March 2015 11:34

skoormit
Messages: 665
Registered: July 2008
Location: Alabama

Lieutenant

Asmodai wrote on Wed, 18 March 2015 08:29

Quote:
Would "design a valid race, then subtract 5% PGR" work?
If the points earned through PGR reduction will not be spended, it can work. If thouse points will be spended on other things - it will not work.

I disagree. There is nothing you can buy with those points that is remotely as powerful as +5% PGR. Let the CA spend the points.

By proposing a max PGR of 14% for CA, my intent was roughly equivalent to "design a valid race, then subtract 5% PGR, then spend those extra points on whatever else you like."

What we need's a few good taters.

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Re: Slow boat to China

Thu, 19 March 2015 04:12

XAPBob
Messages: 957
Registered: August 2012

Lt. Commander

So I take LSP/NAS/... to get the race valid, then get rid of them all when my PGR is down...

[Updated on: Thu, 19 March 2015 04:12]

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Re: Slow boat to China

Thu, 19 March 2015 05:33

Asmodai
Messages: 214
Registered: February 2012

Officer Cadet 1st Year

I have different proposition. Ban it completely.

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Re: Slow boat to China

Sat, 21 March 2015 03:50

jscoble
Messages: 116
Registered: January 2008
Location: Cape Town

Warrant Officer

It all comes down to what the people who are joining a given game will accept. If someone has an attitude of "Ah hates AR! Ain't gonna play inna game dat haz any AR! Grrr!" then you can have that player, or allow AR, but not both.

But it seems to me that CA is a victim of prejudice here - if a CA race does well in a game, no it can't be due to the player's skill at econ management, or diplomacy, or luck-of-the-draw in planet layout, like any other PRT. No, no, a CA always does well because of Instaforming.
If someone takes the CA PRT and wins, that will just convince some people that whatever penalties the host imposed on the PRT weren't enough.

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Re: Slow boat to China

Sun, 22 March 2015 12:23

ludek
Messages: 23
Registered: December 2009

Crewman 1st Class

I'm interested in participating but for one day in a week I will be unable to submit turn (I just get up, get out of home and return to fall into bed).

Regarding CA restriction, with those posted CA may be as weel as banned.
If we want it in the game point penality or just inablity of chosing TT should do fine.
CA is fast race, I played many (mainly -f ones) and it's difficult to be average with CA, either CA
utilizes it's advantage or is just another race without any special ability ( terraforming later in
the game isn't something big) and siginificant edge in resources. So as I think either those balance
patches cripple CA or seemeingly there won't be any impact in performance. Also I agree with opinon
that a lot depends CA neigbours.

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Re: Slow boat to China

Mon, 23 March 2015 02:31

Asmodai
Messages: 214
Registered: February 2012

Officer Cadet 1st Year

I have another solution to include CA into game. Make pairs of players and allow one player from each pair to be CA and the second to be something else.
It reminds me of good game called dynamic duos, and CA/other type of game was also played.
We can also make galaxy somewhat bigger, to allow broader spectrum of races (AR or HG/HP types) more playable.

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Re: Slow boat to China

Tue, 31 March 2015 15:31

XAPBob
Messages: 957
Registered: August 2012

Lt. Commander

No pairs today (although I quite like that idea as well)

I think "design a race then take off 5%" is a likely to be sufficient - would that work franknorman?

Maybe time for a design deadline:
April the 20th?

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