Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » New Game Announcements » Line Of Supply / Fog of War
| Line Of Supply / Fog of War |
Tue, 06 May 2008 13:58  |
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 perrindom |
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Messages: 129
Registered: August 2005
Location: Denmark | |
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FINAL UPDATE: FINAL RULES FOR THE GAME (the original suggestion you can see below):
The intention is to create a game that gives the commander the same problems as that of the Pacific or North Africa theatre in WW2 where the line of supply is long and supply points (bases) are few, i.e. you have to scout and 'read' the map well and to be a good tactictian several turns in advance of battle in order to do well.
* PRT banned: JoaT, PP, IT
* LRT forbidden: IFE, ISB, NAS (exception: AR races may take ISB but they still may not build Docks)
* LRT mandatory: NRSE
* CA must leave 70 race points AND take either Ultimate recycling or Mineral Alchemy
* HAB: two bands must be exactly centered (or immune), the third must include the center value (or immune)
* for races with immunities, their HW's hab setting will be made centered
* forbidden during the game: gates, fuel pods, fuel ships, settler's delight engine, penetrating scanners (except planetary ones)
* any ship you start the game with that are not allowed by these rules must scrapped immediately
* capital missiles are allowed
* no restrictions on tech (take as many cheap as you like)
* Only one other player may be set to friend, and/or traded (tech, ships, mins, intelligence etc) with at any one time, all others must be set to enemy. Otherwise talk all you want.
* Victory: last team/player standing or consensus
Game setup:
8 players: medium (NOT stretched), distant, sparse (27 planets/player, 81^2 ly/planet, about 480 ly between HWs)
Parameters: checked: Acc. BBS, no random events (i.e. no wormholes, no MT). The rest is not checked.
Cheats: split fleet and chaff allowed.
Other:
* players considered very experienced/skilled must leave 70 race point set to whatever they like (in addition to CA penalty)
* if a player misses two unexplained turns and is still out of contact, I will pause the game for a turn or so to look for a replacement. I have seen how fast the fun and thrill is sucked out of a game when a major player goes AWOL.
*Gen schedule: Sunday to Friday fixed at 5 a.m. GMT, (i.e. Friday and Saturday evenings are free). Later on (around 2435) we go to 3 turns/week
No longer relevant rules:
Size: 6 players: small stretched to 1000x1000, distant, dense (26 planets/player, 79^2 ly/planet, about 450 ly between HWs)
ORIGNAL POST:
The intention is to create a game that gives the commander the same problems as that of the Pacific or North Africa theatre in WW2 where the line of supply is very long and supply points are few. Hopefully creating an environment where fuel and damage repair become more important for continued campaigning, and refuelling points (bases) are the means for controlling a wider area. Since reinforcements will be a long way away, little lost skirmishes on the frontier may become snowballs unravelling an entire front.
I would like to play this game myself (until someone convinces me it will be boring), so a neutral is needed to set up the game.
To screate the Line of Supply problem:
IFE: banned, NRSE: mandatory, HE cannot use Settlers' Delight (their starters must be used or scrapped by 2405)
Fuelships and fuel pods of any kind banned
Stargates banned, Spacedocks banned (but if you want ISB for lower cost and the Ultra, go ahead)
Weapons, propulsion, construction and electronics tech may not be cheap.
Capital missiles banned (it will be difficult to bring chaff over large distances). Alternative: Cap missiles cannot be aided by any battle computer.
To create the Fog of War problem:
Penetrating scanners of any kind as well as planetary scanners are banned. You may only have the one you start the game with on your HW and your secondary. Violaters will be quarantined from the planet for 10 years, or the nearest major green planet if the rule is abused and made on a red or very low value planet.
NAS banned
Joat banned
As mentioned above, Electronics tech may not be cheap
No ship may have more than one scanner on them
AR races and their built in scanners?: I say allow them, as their intrinsic planetary scanners are difficult to use for offensive operations, and since this is all about base control, they will likely have a hard time already.
To create the fight over the same vital supply points (bases):
All races must at random choose two hab ranges to be exactly centered (or immune), the third may be set as one chooses. Host should check that no two neighbours have a 100% overlap so they can't intersettle.
Diplomacy:
Only one other player may be set to friend, and/or traded (tech, ships, mins etc) with at any one time, all others must be set to enemy. Ten years must pass before you can change your friend. If more than 8 players still active, a team may negotiate a NAP with one other player/team, and a player without a friend may do so with two other players/teams (only 1 NAP if 8 or less players still active). Talk all you want. Winning: last player/team standing or consensus.
Game setup:
Size: small, farther, packed (if less than 8 players then dense)
Parameters: checked: Acc. BBS, no random events. The rest is not checked.
Number of players: 8 is preferred, 10 max, if 9-10 join, all must choose either UR or MA as a lesser trait. If enough interest I will setup a second game, but without gates I think we should stick to a small universe.
Skill level: intermediate and above (but lets see who shows interest)
Cheats: split fleet and chaff (but not useful) allowed.
{mod edit: "final update"}
[Updated on: Mon, 26 May 2008 16:03] by Moderator Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Line Of Supply / Fog of War |
Wed, 07 May 2008 05:13  |
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| m.a@stars |
 | Commander |
Messages: 2768
Registered: October 2004
Location: Third star to the left | |
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| iztok wrote on Wed, 07 May 2008 00:06 |
Hi!
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To create the Line of Supply problem:
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IMO in a small universe this will not be a serious problem.
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Indeed. Why go to all that trouble just to conquer an universe where the front line is likely to be no more than ten hops away from your HW? 
Lines of supply are already a problem in Huge universes, at least for races w/out Gates. If you want supply to be the key to the game, you should play at least a Large, sparse, and if possible stretched out universe. 
But if you really want to combine the supply and the fog-of-war problems, why not just force every ship to planet hop, with only short stays (1 hop or 2) allowed out of orbit? Most "straight" paths become unusable and routes become all windy and full of choke-points, particularly with Clumping. 
So many Stars, so few Missiles!
In space no one can hear you scheme!  Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Line Of Supply / Fog of War |
Wed, 07 May 2008 14:45 |
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| perrindom |
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Messages: 129
Registered: August 2005
Location: Denmark | |
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| iztok wrote on Wed, 07 May 2008 00:06 |
IMO in a small universe this will not be a serious problem. Some additional cheap LFs and you're out of fuel problem for 2-3 w-9 moves. Maybe limiting the engines to only QJ-5 would create the real problem?
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Haven't thought of "QJ5 only", but that have some adverse effect on battles.
| iztok wrote on Wed, 07 May 2008 00:06 |
You may consider banning the SD and PP. SD's minefields have scannig ability, and PP's packets also do scan.
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Forgot about PP packets, thanks. PP is also banned.
| m.a@stars wrote on Wed, 07 May 2008 11:13 |
Lines of supply are already a problem in Huge universes, at least for races w/out Gates. If you want supply to be the key to the game, you should play at least a Large, sparse, and if possible stretched out universe.
But if you really want to combine the supply and the fog-of-war problems, why not just force every ship to planet hop, with only short stays (1 hop or 2) allowed out of orbit? Most "straight" paths become unusable and routes become all windy and full of choke-points, particularly with Clumping.
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Thanks for the comments.
I try to put up some settings that will make it a challenge to sustain offensive campaigns for the attacker because he/she has the longest line of supply. It does not matter if this is 3 to 1 years or 10 to 7 in the defender's advantage. I hope to keep the game short and intense.
I do not want to enforce planet hopping, because even with a Elec14 Eagle Eye 335 ly scanner, 3 super stealth cloaks to a distance of 67 ly. Moving cloaked ships so close to enemy bases before being sighted he cannot prepare defences should be an interesting tactival aspect.
I haven't played a game with such micro-man comprehensive rule as "max 1-2 years in open space". I would hate to always keep that in mind. Let's KISS, so those of you that play in more than one game don't make a fool of yourself by mixing the rules for each game 
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| Re: Line Of Supply / Fog of War |
Sun, 11 May 2008 12:59 |
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A very interesting concept.
Too many rules, though. And either the number of players must be drastically cut down or the size of the universe enlarged, otherwise it's too crowded and that runs contrary to fog of war, logistic and fuel problems which need a certain distance and size or "emptiness".
To cut down on the rules I suggest the following:
* PRT banned: JoaTs, PP
* LRT forbidden: IFE, NAS
* LRT mandatory: NRSE
* HAB: grav, temp, rad must be centered
* forbidden during the game: gates, docks, fuel pods, fuel ships, settler's delight engine, penetrating scanners (except planetary ones)
* Only one other player may be set to friend, and/or traded (tech, ships, mins etc) with at any one time, all others must be set to enemy.
* Victory: last team/player standing or consensus
Here 2 suggestions for the universe setup:
1) small, sparse, 6 players, acc bcc, no random events
This results in a universe of 800x800 ly with 96 planets. Per player around 16 planets and 326 square-ly. IMHO the universe is a bit too small, the number of planets as low as making 1WW interesting but it will be a short and intense game for sure.
2) medium, sparse, 8 players, acc bcc, no random events
This results in a universe of 1200x1200 ly with 216 planets. Per player around 27 planets and 424 square-ly. This should be the best compromise between short/intense game but nevertheless creating fog of war and logistic problems.
As you can see I have dropped all restrictions on research and weaponry. Planetary pen-scanners coming with tech-10 are ok as is the IS-10. I'd call researching those a vaild strat at the price of researching con and weap.
[Updated on: Sun, 11 May 2008 13:01] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Line Of Supply / Fog of War |
Thu, 15 May 2008 08:57 |
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| perrindom wrote on Wed, 14 May 2008 21:13 |
Hab settings: I think all 3 centered is perhaps too much as it really don't give you much to work with in race design, not giving much diversity. Perhaps saying that two must be centered and the third band just have to include the center value?
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Excellent idea.
If you have everything thoughs out and decided, perhaps it might be a good idea to cut down on confusion by restarting the announcement process?
Although I hate it not to play with gates and docks, I think, I'll join the game. Looks like an exciting tactical challenge.
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| Re: Line Of Supply / Fog of War |
Fri, 16 May 2008 07:57 |
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I am in.
Cap miss: yes. I'd even say: of course. One of the aspects of the game is to cope with fuel shortage.
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* forbidden during the game: ... penetrating scanners (except planetary ones)
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I'd suggest an exception for the robber baron scanner. Comes quite late in the game but there's no joy playing the stealthy ones without their robber scanner.
[Updated on: Fri, 16 May 2008 09:10] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Line Of Supply / Fog of War |
Fri, 16 May 2008 10:43 |
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Whow, no fuel pods, fuel ships, no IFE but NRSE... in a first test completly gone wrong I've just realized how different this will be. It took me 8 turns until I realized that all my scouts were breaking the rules: they were equipped with fuel pods, of course.
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| Re: Line Of Supply / Fog of War |
Sat, 17 May 2008 03:45 |
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| perrindom |
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Messages: 129
Registered: August 2005
Location: Denmark | |
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| Sulpholobus wrote on Fri, 16 May 2008 12:45 |
[So a race can only have 1 immunity.
Sulpholobus.
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My idea was to have us fight for almost the same planet, and I would imagine players would have 1 narrow, 1 wide and 1 shifted either left or right (but still including the center value). Up to 3 immunities would still fullfill the rules.
| Altruist wrote on Fri, 16 May 2008 13:57 |
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* forbidden during the game: ... penetrating scanners (except planetary ones)
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I'd suggest an exception for the robber baron scanner. Comes quite late in the game but there's no joy playing the stealthy ones without their robber scanner.
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How do you know that - I have never seen you play anything than IT 
I know first hand it is a great toy, but I will say it's scanning advantage it simply too great to allow it. With no reinforcements readily available, it can more than ever strike at will with no risk of being hunted down afterwards. I think it is trong enough as it is, and being probed gives the defender a little advance warning that will even things out a little.
So far Cap Mis are allowed.
Added this to the rules: any game-starting ship not allowed by the rules must be scrapped immediately.
Players so far:
Per
Altruist
Oldmetalhead
Iojho
Sulpholobus
Dashiva
Thanks for joining.
Since I intend to play this game myself, could anyone lend me hand my setting up the game when time comes?
/Per (email: perrindom _at_ comxnet.sapmkiler.dk (remove the sapmkiler) - but don't send me any race files!
[Updated on: Sat, 17 May 2008 03:51] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Line Of Supply / Fog of War |
Sat, 17 May 2008 12:39 |
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| perrindom wrote on Sat, 17 May 2008 10:14 |
Gen Schedule:
I expect the game's initial phases to last longer than normal, so, I suggest:
year 0-30: 28 hours
year 31-45: 36 hrs
after that: 52 hrs (or fixed 3 days/week)
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O mercy, no irregular schedules like 28, 36 or 52h. That will drive us crazy. Keep it to plain old Earth day time, the one we originally all came from: 24h.
5 turns/week: until year 30
3 turns/week: afterwards as soon as requested
If somebody is gone for a week, orders can be taken over and submitted by the ally.
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I have never seen you play anything than IT
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Ha! Selective memory. I've beaten you in a duel with a WM, you played the stealthy ones.
[Updated on: Sat, 17 May 2008 12:42] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Line Of Supply / Fog of War |
Sun, 18 May 2008 11:49 |
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| perrindom |
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Messages: 129
Registered: August 2005
Location: Denmark | |
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| Sulpholobus wrote on Sat, 17 May 2008 12:11 |
| perrindom wrote on Sat, 17 May 2008 17:45 |
| Sulpholobus wrote on Fri, 16 May 2008 12:45 |
[So a race can only have 1 immunity.
Sulpholobus.
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My idea was to have us fight for almost the same planet, and I would imagine players would have 1 narrow, 1 wide and 1 shifted either left or right (but still including the center value). Up to 3 immunities would still fullfill the rules.
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Your rules state that 2 habs must be centered. An immunity for a hab does not require that hab to be centered. Hence, by taking more than one immunity, you will very probably have two habs that are not centered. Since the centered habs make everybody elses HW's desirable acquisitions, this is quite an important point. You would need to set such habs to the centre once the game was generated in order to meet your rules. This was done for the Reach for the Top game.
Sulpholobus.
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I said the the "band" must be centered, but you do have a point here. Buying an immunity in this game gives you some advanteges: 1) better chance of finding good green planets in enemy territory that are not already occupied (or at least poorly defended), 2) your HW (and some other planets as well) will most likely be a less attractive prize for others to seize, 3) and as you say your enemies' HWs will be more attractive, but this is actually relatively less so than in a normal game, because all HWs are likely already green to you since all hab bands must include the center value
I think the effect is tolerable, but if Gible is willing to do the required work, let's make them centered.
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| Re: Line Of Supply / Fog of War |
Sun, 18 May 2008 12:08 |
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| perrindom |
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Messages: 129
Registered: August 2005
Location: Denmark | |
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| Altruist wrote on Sat, 17 May 2008 18:39 |
O mercy, no irregular schedules like 28, 36 or 52h. That will drive us crazy. Keep it to plain old Earth day time, the one we originally all came from: 24h.
5 turns/week: until year 30
3 turns/week: afterwards as soon as requested
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I didn't mean them to be fixed that way... but what do the rest of you say? Fixed or dynamic?
| Altruist wrote on Sat, 17 May 2008 18:39 |
Ha! Selective memory. I've beaten you in a duel with a WM, you played the stealthy ones.
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Oh yes, the -F I had the lunacy to play without ISB - forgive me, I totally supressed that memory, but I also recall that we gave each other 4 PRT choices, and IT was, deliberately, not among those I gave you. Take that for selective memory!
[Updated on: Sun, 18 May 2008 12:09] Report message to a moderator
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