| Big Fish |
Mon, 05 March 2007 17:20  |
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I have never played a multi player game of stars! but would love to give it a try. I have an idea for a game where two experienced players "The Big Fish" teach the rest of us minnows how to play.
The two experienced players will play a CA race of their choice with no penalties. They will start close to each other near the center of the map.
The beginer players (including myself) will play any PRT they like except CA. They will start near the edges of the map, as far as possible from each other and the big fish. Will need some map editing to make it work.
The big fish can not ally or cooperate with each other in any way. They can fight each other, and fight or ally with the minnows as suits their interests.
The minnows can fight or ally with anyone they choose.
The winner of the game will declared after either:
1: A Big Fish player outscores the 2nd ranked player by 20% after 50 turns.
2: A minnow manages to get into 1st place after the 1st 50 turns.
Would anyone be willing to host / moderate / play the two Big Fish?
Conrad
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| Re: Big Fish |
Mon, 05 March 2007 18:34  |
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An interesting idea, although I suspect it might prove frustrating for the minnows - facing players with both a skill *and* race advantage.
What universe size, density and player count did you have in mind?
EDIT: oh, and game will probably end at turn 50 - 20% score margin is a bit too easy to get, especially if a big fish designed their race with getting a high 2450 score in mind (lots of planets, ISB for cheap starbases, HG, cheap tech less important than fast resources, make sure speedy enough to hurt the big fish neighbour.) Probably a 80% margin would be more reasonable (80% ahead of rank 2 means probably similar size to both rank 2 and rank 3 combined.)
[Updated on: Mon, 05 March 2007 19:10] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Big Fish |
Mon, 05 March 2007 19:50 |
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Dogthinker,
The idea is that the two primary players have a fun game against each other, while the newer players learn from them. Obviously any minnow who is attacked by a Big Fish will ally with the other and seek his advice.
I can't really predict how things will evolve, the stong players might simply crush the minnows, but it would seem more adventageous to tech trade with them and exploit their primary racial traits for the toys they can offer. Crush the SS minnow or get over cloakers? Crush the IT or get infinity gates?
Since it is unlikely that the minnows will pose a threat, I am guessing it would be more advantageous to ally with them.
I wanted the narrow victory conditions so that the game would end fairly quickly. If one of the Big Fish players is much stronger than the other things will break down rapidly.
I was thinking of a small, packed galaxy with 2 expert players and 4-6 beginers depending on how many want to play).
I understand from reading the boards that new players can ruin the game for better players by either playing poorly (putting up no resistance), or simply dropping out too soon. I am trying to think of a scenerio that would be fun to learn in (and from better players) where they can enjoy it too.
I am open to increasing the winning margin if you think it's too close. I just don't want the game to run on too long once it's clear who'll eventualy win.
I am sure both the better players will design a rance to try and exploit whatever the victory conditions are.
I am open to advice and suggestions, thanks for your interest.
Conrad
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| Re: Big Fish |
Mon, 05 March 2007 19:59 |
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Velvet,
I can get 25k np, but I have never had to use chaff vrs the AI. I understand the theory of chaff, chaff killers, anti chaff killers etc, but I have never had to put it into practice.
What I can't seem to do, even vrs the AI is match the sheer speed of developement I see in some of the post game reviews. Developing is one thing, doing it while producing 100s of scouts and skirmishers early in the game seems a little past my current ability.
If there was a game starting I'd join it. However I would prefere to join a game where my chances of actually learing some tricks of the trade are good.
Conrad
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| Re: Big Fish |
Mon, 05 March 2007 21:24 |
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Ahhh, now I see the logic of giving the big fish both CA... To limit their toys so the little fish are a little more interesting.
It might pay to limit the Big Fish a little more though, maybe force them to leave a few points leftover, so their economies don't fly quite so quickly over those of the Minnows (if their tech races ahead too fast, those PRT parts and tech trading will become irrelevant.)
I'll offer to run a Big Fish race for you. I'd describe myself as upper-intermediate. It might turn into 'shooting fish in a barrel', but it depends how the two Big Fish interact.
The more Minnows the better. As many as you can pack in 
[Updated on: Mon, 05 March 2007 21:24] Report message to a moderator |
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| Re: Big Fish |
Tue, 06 March 2007 00:01 |
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I would be interested in being in this game as a minnow, though I might actually be a perch. I would consider myself an advanced beginner, having placed 8th out of 16 in the Diadochi Wars, which just ended. I too think there should be some limit on the Big Fish, like leftover points. Is there a way to be sure that the Big Fish actually share some of their vast wisdom?
Leknufrag
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| Re: Big Fish |
Tue, 06 March 2007 13:46 |
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| Traveller wrote on Mon, 05 March 2007 23:20 |
The two experienced players will play a CA race of their choice with no penalties. They will start close to each other near the center of the map.
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Another problem might be that the big fish, if they are really close, could have already fought it out before the minnows are somehow ready to participate. At least if the big fish are really experts and the minnows beginners.
Quite a pity, the Fledging Admiral games have both already started. You might have liked them. Although it is a different concept: limiting the skill level of the players from beginners to intermediate (which is still quite a gap) and giving the more experienced some penalties. Some of them ally up with each other and I get the impression that the learning curve is quite steep. And it is much more fun if the skill difference isn't too big, this way both sides can still discuss and discover things instead of the expert only announcing how things are.
Well, I can't host a 3rd game but feel free to copy the concept. But you should try to get a host who won't play in the game, is of advanced or upper intermediate skill level and willing to advise the players on their race designs with hints and tips.
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| Re: Big Fish |
Tue, 06 March 2007 16:58 |
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Small packed galaxy.
Accelerated start.
No public scores until turn 60.
Winning condition.
Expert - Exceed next players score by 50% after 60 turns
Beginner - Get into 1st place score after 60 turns.
2 players will be CA, their habs must be centered and must take total terrforming (so they will compete for the same breeder worlds). They are a single race in civil war, they can not ally or cooperate in any way (no NAP, TECH TRADING, USING FRIENDLY SETTINGS).
Devide the small galaxy into a 4 X 4 grid. The expert players start on a diagonal in the center roughly 200 LY apart. The beginners will start in the outside squares at least 150 LY apart from each other (depends how many) and at least 250 LY from the nearest expert. They can be any race except CA, and can ally or war with anyone they choose.
So far:
Dogthinkers
Leknufrag
Traveller
Anyone else interested? We need at least 6 people to balance the map layout. You don't have to be a total beginer, just to play, if you feel you're lower intermediate that's fine too.
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| Re: Big Fish |
Tue, 06 March 2007 17:10 |
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"Another problem might be that the big fish, if they are really close, could have already fought it out before the minnows are somehow ready to participate. At least if the big fish are really experts and the minnows beginners."
All this is true enough. It's hard to say how things will work out with so many unknowns. The bottom line is though, that the good players can't ally with each other, and that might give everyone else a chance to negotiate with them. IMO having a good player who is your enemy, and your neighbour and playing a monster race with the same hab range as you is quite a handicap........a lot more than 100 points in race creation.
I am hoping that CA races will reduce the luck factor for the two central players, as their hab ranges will be wide enough that finding breeders should be easy. Also they'll both spread faster, making it less likely they'll be able to shut each other down before things get interesting.
I think it will be fun, can't wait to start.
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| Re: Big Fish |
Fri, 09 March 2007 13:35 |
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Sure, more the merrier. Just need 2 more people and we can go.
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| Re: Big Fish |
Wed, 14 March 2007 01:06 |
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We just need one more skilled player to face off against Dogthinker. Is anyone interested?
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| Re: Big Fish |
Wed, 14 March 2007 11:25 |
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I am pretty sure the CAs would roll over anyone who was in the way, without the immediate threat of war with the other monster.
The idea is that the monsters go to war with each other. I have no doubt that they'll attack the rest of us when it's in their advantage to do so, but they will be fighting on two fronts, and not be able to devote their entire resources against us if they do.
I think this will be an interesting political stage to play on. I suspect that the monster who makes the best political decisions will win over someone who is just great at MMing and game mechanics.
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| Re: Big Fish |
Fri, 16 March 2007 09:14 |
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The small fish are free to ally or war with anyone they like. Part of the learning curve of this game is the negotiations between players over borders, inter-settlement agreements and tech trading etc. Personally I would ally with my small fish neighbours if their hab ranges and tech priorities are compatible with mine, and war with them if they're not. After all I am going to try to win, even though it's a long shot.
I would likely try to enter a NAP and trade deal with my nearest Big Fish, if we can come to terms over border worlds. If we can't I'd ally with the one farther away, scout for him, harass the enemy Big Fish shipping lanes with stealth ships and mine fields, packet his border worlds and generally be an annoyance while avoiding main fleet battles as much as possible. I would make sure that the panets of mine that he takes are stripped of minerals and population before he gets there, if at all possible
One of my main design priorites for this game is inter-settlement. Since I know the Big Fish are centered hab, I am trying to make sure my good worlds are not attractive to either of them, and unsual enough that I could inter-settle with the more "common" race designs I see posted on these boards.
My 2nd priority is to make sure I have something to offer the Big Fish, pen scans, interesting PRT toys, and at least one tech normal that they might want to trade for.
Remember, these players are way more skilled than us AND have more powerful races. If you want to have a good relationship with them, where they might teach you something, plan to have something to offer in return.
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| Re: Big Fish |
Sat, 17 March 2007 11:58 |
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Dogthinkers
Annonymous Monster
Leknufrag
Traveller
ADG Wrath
Kelzar
Count Vasquez
Ok we have enough to start. Please start designing your races. I'll give everyone until Friday the 23rd to submit their race files.
We still need a host, and someone to map the game setup for us. If no one steps forward by Friday I'll do it myself.
I propose a 1 turn a day M/T/W/T/F slowing down to M/W/F after 25 turns, unless everyone wants to keep the pace faster at that point.
Conrad
Monsters, please remember, your race must have perfectly centered hab, and TT.
happybeachboy@yahoo.com
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all too probable. Darn monsters! 
